Evidence of meeting #108 for Access to Information, Privacy and Ethics in the 44th Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was documents.
A recording is available from Parliament.
12:05 p.m.
Conservative
12:05 p.m.
Liberal
Francesco Sorbara Liberal Vaughan—Woodbridge, ON
Thank you, Mr. Chair.
It's great to be on this committee today. Happy Tuesday to everyone.
Mr. Wernick, thank you for being here with us today. When did you leave government, please?
12:05 p.m.
Jarislowsky Chair in Public Sector Management, University of Ottawa, As an Individual
I left on Easter weekend of 2019.
12:05 p.m.
Liberal
Francesco Sorbara Liberal Vaughan—Woodbridge, ON
I do want to get this on the record, and you may have stated this earlier. How many years did you serve in the public service and in what capacity?
12:05 p.m.
Jarislowsky Chair in Public Sector Management, University of Ottawa, As an Individual
I served for 38 years in the public service—17 years as a deputy minister and three years as clerk.
12:05 p.m.
Liberal
Francesco Sorbara Liberal Vaughan—Woodbridge, ON
I take it that over that 38-year period, you served under administrations or governments of both Liberal and Conservative stripe.
12:10 p.m.
Jarislowsky Chair in Public Sector Management, University of Ottawa, As an Individual
Indeed. I'm very sad to see Mr. Mulroney's death.
12:10 p.m.
Liberal
Francesco Sorbara Liberal Vaughan—Woodbridge, ON
Yes. I'll state, and hopefully state it later this evening, that Mr. Mulroney was a transformative prime minister for Canada and for the time, as I will reflect on his many achievements we have heard about and have been reminded of in the last few days.
Mr. Wernick, I can only say, regarding your responsibility level, that what you as a former Clerk of the Privy Council and secretary to the cabinet carried on your shoulders was, in fact, a very high bar.
12:10 p.m.
Jarislowsky Chair in Public Sector Management, University of Ottawa, As an Individual
Thank you, sir.
12:10 p.m.
Liberal
Francesco Sorbara Liberal Vaughan—Woodbridge, ON
In what capacity are you operating today? Are you just fully retired or are you still contributing to Canada and to our society?
12:10 p.m.
Jarislowsky Chair in Public Sector Management, University of Ottawa, As an Individual
I'm a part-time university professor. I've been endowed a chair, and I dabble in public administration, governance, public sector productivity management issues. My output is on the LinkedIn site that I maintain.
12:10 p.m.
Liberal
Francesco Sorbara Liberal Vaughan—Woodbridge, ON
Yes, of course, the Jarislowsky chair, the endowed chair. As anyone knows in the investment world, what Jarislowsky, the individual, has done for Canada is actually quite exemplary.
Going to—
12:10 p.m.
Jarislowsky Chair in Public Sector Management, University of Ottawa, As an Individual
I hasten to add that he's still alive.
12:10 p.m.
Liberal
Francesco Sorbara Liberal Vaughan—Woodbridge, ON
Yes, very much so.
Going to the question at hand, we've had a lot of questions. In fact, I think that today we had the same questions from some of my colleagues on the opposite side: The questions they asked today were the same ones they asked in 2019 because there really isn't anything new here that we need to look at.
In terms of cabinet confidentiality—you've obviously been in that cabinet room under governments—how important and how complex is that? If I had to explain to the voters back at home in Vaughan—Woodbridge the importance of cabinet confidentiality and what that means, can you elaborate on that, sir?
12:10 p.m.
Jarislowsky Chair in Public Sector Management, University of Ottawa, As an Individual
It's a big topic. We run cabinet government. You are elected as a team, you will be unelected as a team, and people are chosen to sit around the cabinet table among the caucus and the governing party, maybe more than one party if there's a coalition. It's a fundamental principle that people can go into the room and speak freely about their views on any topic, whether they're presenting their own ideas or discussing ideas presented by a colleague. They are elected as a team and then they stick to the decision. Once a decision is called, that is the decision of cabinet, which goes forward in terms of laws, policies and regulations. We do not operate the federal or provincial cabinets, as you know, like a city council or the American Congress, where everybody has an independent voice.
March 19th, 2024 / 12:10 p.m.
Liberal
Francesco Sorbara Liberal Vaughan—Woodbridge, ON
The independence, your quote on the rule of law in 2019, at your first appearance.... This was in 2019, probably almost five years ago or so, that you stated:
Should Canadians be concerned about the rule of law in this country? No. In the matter of SNC-Lavalin, it is now seven years since the first police raid on the company and four years since charges were laid by the RCMP, and during that entire time and up to today, the independence of the investigative and prosecutorial function has never been compromised. The matter is proceeding
That independence of a judiciary in Canada, from your point of view, the robustness of that independence and how that worked during the time you served as the Clerk of the Privy Council, please....
12:10 p.m.
Jarislowsky Chair in Public Sector Management, University of Ottawa, As an Individual
I stand by that commentary. It's the director of Public Prosecutions who said at the time, and went to the trouble of issuing a statement, that her office had never experienced political interference in a prosecution, and we have not seen interference in police investigations. As tempting as it was in the cases of blockades, pipeline blockades and the occupation of downtown Ottawa, it's a well-established principle of federal and provincial governments that police investigations and operations are conducted independently, and prosecutors and courts operate independently.
12:10 p.m.
Liberal
Francesco Sorbara Liberal Vaughan—Woodbridge, ON
Not even just as a member of Parliament but as a citizen of this country, a Canadian citizen, we would expect nothing less than that independence to be upheld at all times.
12:10 p.m.
Jarislowsky Chair in Public Sector Management, University of Ottawa, As an Individual
Well, you see what happens in other countries when you start to see the government directing who should be investigated and arrested.
12:10 p.m.
Liberal
Francesco Sorbara Liberal Vaughan—Woodbridge, ON
Yes, and it is unfortunate to see that happening in other countries. I know that, here in Canada, we must guard always to ensure that the independence is upheld. I thank you, sir, for those comments.
Mr. Wernick, I just want to say thank you for your 38 years of public service, and your duty and responsibilities that you held for both governments. Whether it was a Conservative government or a Liberal government, your service speaks for itself and I want to say thank you.
Chair, I'm finished with my remarks. Thank you.
12:15 p.m.
Conservative
The Chair Conservative John Brassard
Thank you, Mr. Sorbara.
Mr. Villemure now has the floor for six minutes.
12:15 p.m.
Bloc
René Villemure Bloc Trois-Rivières, QC
Thank you, Mr. Chair.
Mr. Wernick, as stated earlier, we're here today because of a motion asking the committee to look into why the RCMP didn't further investigate the case. As you know, we met with the RCMP commissioner and the person in charge of the investigation.
I'll refer to a question that we all asked you indirectly earlier and that concerns cabinet confidence. Believe me, I understand the need for cabinet confidence. It means that we can have candid discussions and share our opinions without fear of having our heads torn off. We see eye to eye on this. Now, I would like to know the rationale for your decision, at the time, to withhold documents.
12:15 p.m.
Jarislowsky Chair in Public Sector Management, University of Ottawa, As an Individual
As I said, I did not take part in the decision regarding the submission of documents. The decision, which the commissioner disputed, was made by the clerk who took over from me.
12:15 p.m.
Bloc
René Villemure Bloc Trois-Rivières, QC
Okay.
Let's go back to your days as clerk. Suppose you had to make a decision regarding the release or withholding of documents. What would be your basis or rationale for deciding to release everything, to release some things or to withhold everything?
