Evidence of meeting #108 for Access to Information, Privacy and Ethics in the 44th Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was documents.
A recording is available from Parliament.
11:40 a.m.
Bloc
René Villemure Bloc Trois-Rivières, QC
That is not acceptable.
I have no further questions, Mr. Chair.
11:40 a.m.
Conservative
The Chair Conservative John Brassard
Wait one second, Mr. Villemure.
Mr. Wernick, you're an experienced government employee. You understand that your appearance before committee is protected by parliamentary privilege. Members have privilege to ask questions, and they expect that they're going to be directly answered. My expectation as the chair of this committee, Mr. Wernick, is that you're going to answer those questions.
Mr. Villemure, you have the floor for one minute and 45 seconds.
11:40 a.m.
Bloc
René Villemure Bloc Trois-Rivières, QC
Thank you, Mr. Chair.
Mr. Wernick, as I said earlier, you told Ms. Wilson‑Raybould that the Prime Minister was not asking her to do anything illegal, just to use all the tools at her disposal. When we read the transcript of the conversation, we see that there is some hesitation or, at the very least, something you left unspoken. I would like your comments on that conversation and what was left unspoken.
11:40 a.m.
Jarislowsky Chair in Public Sector Management, University of Ottawa, As an Individual
What aspect should I comment on? What is the question?
11:40 a.m.
Bloc
René Villemure Bloc Trois-Rivières, QC
You said you did not believe the Prime Minister asked her to do anything appropriate or to interfere; he was just asking her to use all the tools she lawfully had at her disposal. You let it be understood that “something” had to be done. What did you mean by “something”.
11:40 a.m.
Jarislowsky Chair in Public Sector Management, University of Ottawa, As an Individual
I don't know.
11:40 a.m.
Conservative
The Chair Conservative John Brassard
Thank you, Mr. Villemure.
We're going now to Mr. Green for two and a half minutes.
11:40 a.m.
NDP
Matthew Green NDP Hamilton Centre, ON
Thank you very much.
I'm just going to pick up on that.
I wasn't around, obviously, when this happened, and certainly the Honourable Murray Rankin, Charlie and others from my caucus likely would have dealt with this.
Help me get a sense of when the telephone conversation happens between you and the former attorney general and you say that the prime minister's in a kind of a mood, and there's an assertion that he wanted her to shelve the prosecution, and it is said, “He's in a pretty firm frame of mind about this, so I'm a bit worried.”
What would you be worried about? This is your language from the recorded conversation.
11:40 a.m.
Jarislowsky Chair in Public Sector Management, University of Ottawa, As an Individual
Yes, you're asking me to dredge up memories from five years ago, and I gave my testimony on all of this to the justice committee and to the commissioner. To the best of my recollection, this was an issue about the minister's role as a member of cabinet and the cabinet as a team.
11:40 a.m.
Conservative
Michael Barrett Conservative Leeds—Grenville—Thousand Islands and Rideau Lakes, ON
I have a point of order, Chair.
11:40 a.m.
Conservative
The Chair Conservative John Brassard
Hang on a second, Mr. Wernick.
Mr. Barrett, go ahead on your point of order, please.
11:40 a.m.
Conservative
Michael Barrett Conservative Leeds—Grenville—Thousand Islands and Rideau Lakes, ON
Chair, you intervened in the previous round with very clear expectations about what's supposed to happen.
Mr. Green's question to the witness was very straightforward and the witness is now saying that he gave testimony about something that hadn't happened at the time. When he came before the justice committee, the recording that Mr. Green is referencing hadn't yet been released. Mr. Wernick didn't know he'd been caught.
The expectation of the committee is, of course, as you said, that the witness is going to answer the questions and not simply say, “I've answered that question before.”
However, Chair, for your consideration, of course committee can formally order that the witness answer the questions. If he refuses, then it is a violation of this committee's privilege, which would need to be reported to the House.
I don't think it needs to come to that, but I just think that perhaps one more urging and an opportunity for Mr. Green to restate his question so that we can get an actual answer from the witness....
11:45 a.m.
Conservative
The Chair Conservative John Brassard
Thank you for that intervention, Mr. Barrett.
That is a valid point of order.
Mr. Wernick, I am now starting to get into one of those moods that you spoke of with the Prime Minister. I'm asking you to answer the questions directly.
Mr. Green, I'm not going to restart your clock. I'm going to ask you to restate your question and the expectation of this committee, Mr. Wernick—because they do have privilege to ask these questions—is for you to answer them.
Mr. Green, go ahead. I'm going to give you as much time as you need.
11:45 a.m.
NDP
Matthew Green NDP Hamilton Centre, ON
Thank you very much.
This was referring to the December 19, 2018 conversation that had been recorded when you told Ms. Wilson-Raybould that Mr. Trudeau was in a kind of a mood and, in her words, wanted to shelve the prosecution of the Montreal-based engineering firm.
These are your words as recorded and distributed: “He's in a pretty firm frame of mind about this though, so I'm a bit worried”. You then went on to say, “I am worried about a collision then because he's pretty firm about this. I just saw him a few hours ago and this is really important to him”.
I raise that, sir, because in the context of previous testimony that you just provided this committee, you talked about feeling intimidated—maybe not you feeling intimidated, but about where that line could be crossed.
However, as was mentioned earlier, when you are sent as a messenger from the Prime Minister's Office and talk about a mood and about a collision course....
What did you mean by that?
11:45 a.m.
Jarislowsky Chair in Public Sector Management, University of Ottawa, As an Individual
First of all, I'm trying my best to respond to the questions and reconstruct a sequence of events.
I apologize to the members if I have events of five years out of sequence and if my testimony, which happened twice, was before or after other events. I don't have the chronology clear in my head. If I mixed it up, I apologize to the committee.
You're talking, I presume, about my first appearance at the justice committee, or are you talking about the...?
11:45 a.m.
NDP
Matthew Green NDP Hamilton Centre, ON
I'm talking about the recording that came out.
I would say that it's a lot easier for you to operate in this committee if you just answer the questions. Then you don't have to think about what you did and you don't have to think about timelines.
Just answering—
11:45 a.m.
Jarislowsky Chair in Public Sector Management, University of Ottawa, As an Individual
Actually, the timelines matter to the answers, so yes, I do want to know the sequence of events.
11:45 a.m.
Jarislowsky Chair in Public Sector Management, University of Ottawa, As an Individual
Right, and that conversation was available to the commissioner, so I'm not sure what your question is still. I'm trying to answer it, but what is your question?
11:45 a.m.
NDP
Matthew Green NDP Hamilton Centre, ON
You said the Prime Minister was in kind of a mood and that the Attorney General was on a collision course.
I'm going to put to you, sir, that it sounds like a threat. When you say that you arrived from meeting him a few hours ago and you came to her with that message, that sounds like a threat.
11:45 a.m.
Jarislowsky Chair in Public Sector Management, University of Ottawa, As an Individual
It certainly was not intended as a threat and it's not the interpretation of the commissioner.
11:45 a.m.
Conservative
The Chair Conservative John Brassard
Thank you, Mr. Green.
Mr. Cooper, you have five minutes.
Go ahead.
11:45 a.m.
Conservative
Michael Cooper Conservative St. Albert—Edmonton, AB
Thank you, Mr. Chair.
Thank you, Mr. Wernick.
Two days before Jody Wilson-Raybould testified before the justice committee, you drafted Order in Council 2019-0105, which partially waived cabinet confidentiality.
Is that correct?