Information & Ethics Committee on Jan. 31st, 2022

[The Chair, Conservative, Pat Kelly]

Good morning, everyone. I call this meeting to order.

Welcome to meeting three of the House of Commons Standing Committee on Access to Information, Privacy and Ethics. Today the committee is proceeding to the consideration of matters related to committee business.

Today’s meeting is taking place in a hybrid format pursuant to the House order of November 25, 2021. Members are attending in person in the room and remotely using the Zoom application. The proceedings will be made available via the House of Commons website. The webcast will always show the person speaking rather than the entirety of the committee.

Given the ongoing pandemic situation, and in light of the recommendations from health authorities as well as the directive of the Board of Internal Economy on October 19, 2021, to remain healthy and safe, all those attending the meeting in person are to maintain a two-metre physical distance and must wear a non-medical mask when they are circulating in the room. It is recommended that the mask be worn at all times, including when people are seated, but not when they are speaking. I will remove my mask when I'm speaking as chair. It's also required that we maintain proper hand hygiene by using the hand sanitizer provided at the room entrance. I will be enforcing these measures for the duration of the meeting and thank members in advance for their co-operation.

To ensure an orderly meeting, I would like to outline a few rules to follow. Members may speak in the official language of their choice. Interpretation services are available for this meeting. You have the choice, at the bottom of your screen, of either floor, English or French audio. If interpretation is lost, please inform the chair immediately. We will ensure that interpretation is properly restored before resuming the proceedings. The “raise hand” feature at the bottom of the screen can be used at any time if you wish to speak or to alert the chair. For members participating in the room, proceed as you normally would when the whole committee is meeting in person in a committee room.

Keep in mind the Board of Internal Economy's guidelines for mask use and health protocols. Before speaking, wait until I recognize you by name. If you are on the video conference, please click on the microphone icon to unmute yourself. For those in the room, your microphone will be controlled as normal. You don't have to hit the switch. Speak slowly and clearly for the benefit of our interpreters. When you are not speaking, your mike should be on mute.

As a reminder, all comments by members and witnesses should be addressed through the chair. With regard to a speaking list, the committee clerk and I will do our best to maintain a consolidated order of speaking for all members, both virtually and in the room.

That being said, we are here to discuss committee business. Rising from the last meeting, I will go first to Mr. Villemure, who may wish to move his motion. I will let him go first. We spoke of continuing with that motion at our last meeting.

Go ahead, Mr. Villemure.

[René Villemure, Bloc, Trois-Rivières, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I want to acknowledge all my fellow committee members.

I'd like to propose that we continue the discussion on the motion.

[The Chair, Conservative, Pat Kelly]

Are you asking me to read the motion?

[René Villemure, Bloc, Trois-Rivières, QC]

No, I'm asking you just to pursue the discussion.

[The Chair, Conservative, Pat Kelly]

Well, indeed. Do you have anything further to contribute, or would you prefer that I go to others who have their hand up and who perhaps wish to speak to the motion? Do you wish to add anything further?

[René Villemure, Bloc, Trois-Rivières, QC]

No. I have no further comments.

[The Chair, Conservative, Pat Kelly]

All right.

Ms. Khalid, go ahead.

[Iqra Khalid, Liberal, Mississauga—Erin Mills, ON]

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.

Happy Monday, everyone.

I wanted to check with you, Mr. Chair, on what items we have on the agenda today other than discussion of Monsieur Villemure's motion. Do we have anything planned other than that discussion?

[The Chair, Conservative, Pat Kelly]

I called the meeting for committee business today. We have an outstanding motion that I know some members of the committee wish to have an opportunity to continue. We will proceed with that. If there are other motions, of course, this would be an opportunity to entertain them.

If the committee deals with and disposes of Mr. Villemure's motion, then I will report back on the outcome, from the committee point of view, on witnesses, pursuant to the last motion we adopted.

I will also point out that a work schedule or work plan was distributed to committee members this morning. If we get to it, I would maybe have an opportunity to hear comments from members about just how we proceed in terms of numbers of meetings. I don't want to get into discussing individual witness claims in public at this meeting, but if members desire it, we could move in camera to discuss individual witnesses.

So I think we have a few things we can go on today. We have the minister scheduled to appear on Thursday. I wanted to use this meeting to deal with some of the committee business that we already have in front of us.

If you have no further comments on that, I'll go to Mr. Fergus.

[Greg Fergus, Liberal, Hull—Aylmer, QC]

Actually, Mr. Chair, Ms. Saks was ahead of me.

Thank you.

[The Chair, Conservative, Pat Kelly]

I'm sorry, Greg, I was just taking instruction from the clerk. Can you give that to me again?

[Greg Fergus, Liberal, Hull—Aylmer, QC]

Ms. Saks, according to Zoom, had her hand up before me.

[The Chair, Conservative, Pat Kelly]

Thank you. I didn't get the order.

We are now on debate on Mr. Villemure's motion.

Go ahead, Ms. Saks.

[Ya'ara Saks, Liberal, York Centre, ON]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I'd like to welcome all of our colleagues back to the important work of the House.

Referring to Mr. Villemure's motion....

I hear an echoing from the floor audio. If there's a way to mute that, it would be very helpful. Thank you so much.

This is an important discussion that we're having. I'm really looking forward to hearing from the Minister of Health and PHAC officials on Thursday to get down to our core questions with regard to this study and the questions the committee members have put forward.

I need to emphasize, as we discuss Mr. Villemure's motion today, the importance of continuing to collect the data we need to fight COVID-19. Every step of the way, there has been absolute transparency in terms of the collection of the data we receive from BlueDot and other service providers. As a matter of fact, the parliamentary secretary for health, Mr. van Koeverden, was kind enough to provide comments and a sample of aggregate data to the committee for review. I'd like to discuss what's in the data that PHAC receives, because we now have for discussion today exactly what officials are looking at in their request for mobility data from service providers.

When we look at it, we see that it is completely disaggregated, depersonalized data that is set up in sets, whether in regional or even in urban areas. They are looking at week-to-week comparisons of mobility, meaning movement: Where are Canadians going during lockdowns on a week in and week out basis?

They ask very important questions in a comparative way during the reporting weeks of how many people in general are moving from home to work when lockdowns are in place, and then comparing that data in terms of numbers of spread or outbreaks in those areas. They're looking at movement in relation to outbreak and spread, which is really key, especially now with the Omicron virus at hand. We know that the spread is so high.

I feel we need to consider the data that is available. I want to thank the parliamentary secretary, Mr. van Koeverden, for making sure that the committee can weigh in on this data in an effective manner, looking piece by piece, page by page at the statistics with which PHAC is making its evaluations to advise our various ministers of health and COVID teams from coast to coast to coast, province by province and region by region.

When we look at this data, we see that it is secure, as a matter of fact. It's de-identified. It is time-sensitive, looking at four-week or even two-week sets at different times to ensure that we understand how movement relates to outbreaks. As we look at this RFP that is being weighed out and suspensions when we are at the height of a spread, we're looking at various plateaus and reopenings. We have a reopening here in Ontario as of today, as restaurants, gyms and public places start to reopen again.

To hinder the collection of the impact of that.... We need to consider the data very carefully. We now know exactly what kind of data is being collected; we have a sample in front of us. Perhaps, rather than putting the cart before the horse, as they say, we should wait to hear from the Minister of Health and PHAC officials on Thursday to ensure that we're making the best decisions and not knee-jerk reactions, while ensuring every step of the way that Canadians are healthy and safe and that their privacy is protected.

From what we've seen recently from the Department of Health and the parliamentary secretary, there's a very clear and concise explanation to have this data that's been collected, what it's being used for, and the importance of it in making wise decisions for the health and safety of Canadians.

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

[The Chair, Conservative, Pat Kelly]

Thank you, Ms. Saks.

Now we go to Mr. Fergus.

[Greg Fergus, Liberal, Hull—Aylmer, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I want to thank my colleague, Adam van Koeverden, for giving all committee members information on the de‑identified data used by the Public Health Agency of Canada and the government.

I hope that, in light of this, Mr. Villemure will make some changes to his motion. I personally have some to propose. I hope that my colleague will accept them as friendly amendments. I know that the House of Commons Standing Orders don't say anything about this. However, I'm making these proposals to improve his motion.

Unfortunately, I've written these amendments to the motion in English. I would be happy to try to do a quick translation and get it over to you.

Mr. Chair, if you'll allow me, I'd like to present these modifications to his motion. May I do so?

[The Chair, Conservative, Pat Kelly]

Mr. Fergus, it's up to the members of the committee to move amendments. If you have an amendment, you're welcome to move it, and it's not necessary for you to—

[Greg Fergus, Liberal, Hull—Aylmer, QC]

Seek your approval.

[The Chair, Conservative, Pat Kelly]

You don't need my approval; nor do you need consideration for language. You can orally move a motion in either official language and you're not required to translate it for us.

Go ahead.

[Greg Fergus, Liberal, Hull—Aylmer, QC]

I will do so, although I have to say that I try my very best to provide information in both languages. I'm sorry I did not have an opportunity—

[The Chair, Conservative, Pat Kelly]

I'm sorry. I mean that if you were providing it in writing, it would have to be in both official languages, but if you are going to orally make a motion, you may do so, and the excellent interpreters we have here will take care to ensure it's understood by all members.

[Greg Fergus, Liberal, Hull—Aylmer, QC]

I will do so, and I will read it. Perhaps I'll read where I'm going to make the changes, and then I'll read it out completely.

For the interpreters and to my colleagues, in taking a look at Monsieur Villemure's motion, following the word “until”, delete the word “it” and add “the Standing Committee on Access to Information, Privacy and Ethics”.

The second change I'd like to make is, following the word “reports”, to delete the words “its findings and recommendations”.

My final change would be, following the word “House”, to add the words “that it is satisfied that the privacy of Canadians will not be unduly affected”.

Therefore, fellow colleagues, the entire motion would read as follows:

That the Committee call upon the government to suspend the PHAC cellular data tender upon adoption of this motion, and that the tender shall not be reoffered until the Standing Committee on Access to Information, Privacy and Ethics reports to the House that it is satisfied that the privacy of Canadians will not be unduly affected, and that the Committee report back to the House on the adoption of this motion at the earliest opportunity.

[The Chair, Conservative, Pat Kelly]

Thank you, Mr. Fergus. I believe your amendment is in order. I think I'd like to pause for a moment to ensure that. Let me check with the clerk to ensure we have it down correctly, so that members understand what is being proposed and it can be debated properly.

[The Clerk of the Committee, Ms. Nancy Vohl]

Could he send the final text over to me?

[The Chair, Conservative, Pat Kelly]

Mr. Fergus, it appears you have it in writing with you. If you could send that to the clerk, it will assist us. It won't be distributed, being unilingual, but it will help the clerk to ensure that we understand and that the interpreters can make sure all members understand.