Information & Ethics Committee on Feb. 10th, 2022

[René Villemure, Bloc, Trois-Rivières, QC]

Okay. I have only 10 seconds left, so I'll use them to thank you.

Ms. Scassa, unfortunately I didn't get the chance to ask you any questions, since my questions were directed mainly to Ms. Cavoukian. Thank you for joining us.

[The Chair, Conservative, Pat Kelly]

Two and a half minutes goes by quickly.

Now we'll go to Mr. Green.

[Matthew Green, NDP, Hamilton Centre, ON]

Thank you.

Mr. Chair, I'd like to ask Dr. Scassa, who referenced an updated legal framework: What exceptions, if any, should exist with respect to the collection, use and disclosure of anonymized or de-identified information by the government?

[Dr. Teresa Scassa]

I was concerned by the wording in Bill C-11 in the exception for use of data for socially beneficial purposes that referred to the sharing of this data without knowledge or consent. I think that this transparency issue that Dr. Cavoukian has spoken about and that has been debated and discussed is fundamentally important here.

There need to be some transparency mechanisms so that people can understand how their data is being used. There may also need to be some sort of governance framework in place that sets parameters, puts limits on the use and sets an ethical framework for the use, if that's necessary.

[Matthew Green, NDP, Hamilton Centre, ON]

Thank you.

Mr. Chair, respecting the committee's time, I would just like to say to that point that the Privacy Commissioner has been clear as well with the recommendation that strengthening that office in a third party way would help them pursue that proactively as well as doing audits in the private sector, which I think would be an important point.

Mr. Chair, I'd like to now present this committee with a notice of motion that will be distributed by the clerk in both official languages. I'll use my last minute to do that so as not to take up anybody else's time.

Is that okay?

[The Chair, Conservative, Pat Kelly]

Go ahead with a notice of motion.

[Matthew Green, NDP, Hamilton Centre, ON]

That, pursuant to Standing Order 108(3)(h) the committee send for, from the Public Health Agency of Canada (PHAC) and Health Canada, the Privacy Impact Assessment, and all documents used to inform the Privacy Impact Assessment, developed with regard to PHAC’s use of mobility data tracking for COVID-19, and that these documents be received by the committee no later than March 4, 2022.

Mr. Chair, I'm happy to put that as a notice of motion. It's something that we should hopefully be able to debate and, with the support of this committee, pass and hopefully get that information to create a deeper understanding of what measures this agency took in pursuing this contract.

Thank you.

[The Chair, Conservative, Pat Kelly]

Thank you.

With that, in the interest of making up some of the time we lost in this panel due to votes, I'm going to go to two minutes each for the last two questioners.

We'll have two minutes for Mr. Kurek and then two minutes for Mr. Fergus and that will conclude the first panel.

[Damien Kurek, Conservative, Battle River—Crowfoot, AB]

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.

To Dr. Cavoukian, as Mr. Villemure mentioned, the concern in the RFP is that this data is not only going to be used in the fight against COVID, but it was very open-ended in terms of what the future use could be. I'm wondering if you have further comments on that.

I hope to get one more question in.

[Dr. Ann Cavoukian]

Having specific limits placed on use is absolutely critical. If you don't identify what the primary purpose or main use of the data collection is, secondary uses always arise. We can use it for this purpose or that purpose. A whole series of beneficial uses could be contemplated—

[Damien Kurek, Conservative, Battle River—Crowfoot, AB]

Sorry, I have a short amount of time.

I've heard from some constituents who are concerned that the data that the Public Health Agency of Canada may have received may not be limited to use within the Public Health Agency of Canada. It could be shared with other departments.

Is that a concern you would share?

[Dr. Ann Cavoukian]

Of course. How do we know what restrictions have been placed on the use of the data by PHAC or others in government? We know nothing. That's why looking under the hood by the federal Privacy Commissioner and auditing all of this is absolutely essential.

[Damien Kurek, Conservative, Battle River—Crowfoot, AB]

I appreciate that.

Certainly as a rural parliamentarian, I've heard also some concerns about the data that may be aggregated in an urban centre where there are hundreds of thousands or millions of people versus a small community where there are dozens or hundreds.

I'm wondering if you could unpack that in the little bit of time that is left.

[Dr. Ann Cavoukian]

The way in which these kinds of data are put together—as you mentioned, millions of people versus small communities—obviously if you have a very small community, it leads to the identifiability of those in that community. That's always a concern. That's why, again, you should always involve the federal Privacy Commissioner, who can examine all of that and make sure that the proper protections have been put into place.

[The Chair, Conservative, Pat Kelly]

That's great timing.

Now for the final two-minute question round, we have Mr. Fergus.

[Greg Fergus, Liberal, Hull—Aylmer, QC]

Thank you very much, Chair, and thank you to our witnesses.

I'm going to be very brief.

Dr. Cavoukian, thank you for your testimony.

I just want to make sure I understand. At our last meeting, Dr. El Emam talked about how there are really good ways to reduce the possibility of data being reidentified. He admitted that perhaps there's no perfect way, but there are world-standard practices to bring it down.

Does Telus data for good meet those requirements, in your opinion?

[Dr. Ann Cavoukian]

I would have to look at it hands-on. Telus data for good does amazing work. I have looked at Telus' work in other areas in terms of their de-identification of data and aggregation. They do an excellent job, so I agree with Dr. El Emam, who is the expert in this area, that they are doing it properly.

My concerns are not with the de-identification process followed by them.

[Greg Fergus, Liberal, Hull—Aylmer, QC]

Okay, so your concern is not about the de-identification process followed by—

[Dr. Ann Cavoukian]

It's about the transparency or lack thereof.

[Greg Fergus, Liberal, Hull—Aylmer, QC]

Sure.

I agree that there's a larger issue. Mr. Green's questions would speak to that or my colleagues would speak to that.

I'm really trying to understand what the Public Health Agency had received from Telus' data. Again, I think I'm hearing from you that you feel the information they received was de-identified to the best standard possible.

[Dr. Ann Cavoukian]

I'm sure it was. They are excellent in this field.

I want to repeat, my concerns were not with their methodology, it was with the government's lack of transparency in letting the public know what they were doing.

[Greg Fergus, Liberal, Hull—Aylmer, QC]

I just want to make sure, so Canadians can sort of feel, in terms of the information they got, that this wasn't government surveilling them. This was using de-identified data that came from a legitimate source.

Can I ask you just to confirm that?

[Dr. Ann Cavoukian]

Yes, I will confirm that.

[Greg Fergus, Liberal, Hull—Aylmer, QC]

Thank you very much.

On that front then, I want to also make sure that you feel—and if I could have you just clarify this—using that industry standard approach—

[The Chair, Conservative, Pat Kelly]

I'm sorry, Mr. Fergus. I struggled to get my mike activated. You're quite out of time.