Evidence of meeting #84 for Access to Information, Privacy and Ethics in the 44th Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was code.
A recording is available from Parliament.
5:15 p.m.
Information Commissioner, Offices of the Information and Privacy Commissioners of Canada
Lack of information can lead us to misunderstand, and therefore, as we said earlier, to conceive our own ideas and lapse into conspiracy theories. So, yes, it certainly can lead to many negative outcomes.
5:15 p.m.
Bloc
René Villemure Bloc Trois-Rivières, QC
I have about 30 seconds left. Would you also say that lack of information erodes trust in the government apparatus?
5:15 p.m.
Information Commissioner, Offices of the Information and Privacy Commissioners of Canada
It totally does. If people find out afterwards that information wasn't given to them or provided to them in a timely manner or that they didn't have the right facts and the right information, they can't trust that the next time they will get all that. That's why I said to you that information should be provided as quickly as possible, as well as possible and as voluntarily as possible.
5:15 p.m.
Conservative
The Chair Conservative John Brassard
Thank you, Mr. Villemure.
Mr. Green, you have two and a half minutes. Please go ahead.
5:15 p.m.
NDP
Matthew Green NDP Hamilton Centre, ON
Thank you, Mr. Chair.
There have been some pretty significant concerns about regulated and unregulated lobbying raised in the matter of the sponsored travel that I'd like to address through Commissioner Bélanger.
If it's the case that a trip is funded—a third party, vis-à-vis an interest that may be registered through individuals—what mechanisms do we have to pursue and investigate dark money funding of sponsored travel?
5:15 p.m.
Commissioner of Lobbying, Office of the Commissioner of Lobbying
I'm sorry. I'm not sure I understood your question.
From my perspective, if I know that a lobbyist—who's registered and whom I regulate—provides sponsored travel when prohibited, I can investigate and report to Parliament.
5:15 p.m.
NDP
Matthew Green NDP Hamilton Centre, ON
Who investigates in the unregulated compensation of MPs' travel abroad?
5:20 p.m.
Commissioner of Lobbying, Office of the Commissioner of Lobbying
There's a gap.
October 16th, 2023 / 5:20 p.m.
NDP
Matthew Green NDP Hamilton Centre, ON
It's the Wild West, essentially. That's what we're saying. There's an incentive for big corporations or consultants to not register in order to not have to adhere to the law.
When you add up the numbers of this trip and you look at the ways consultancies operate.... I have a hard time, as a former consultant myself, understanding how an individual can come up with the kind of cash to send people on a trip like this, to have the kinds of expenses—$3,400 in champagne and wine and nearly $1,000 for steak—without there being some kind of fiduciary interest in that.
In that regard, if it's not regulated and not within the framework of lobbying, could that not be considered in the space of bribery?
5:20 p.m.
Commissioner of Lobbying, Office of the Commissioner of Lobbying
Possibly...but what I would highly recommend is that when it comes to acceptability.... You know, public servants are not accepting these types of trips. It's really in relation to members of Parliament, so if you believe that this needs to be regulated, maybe it's in the hands of the Conflict of Interest—
5:20 p.m.
NDP
Matthew Green NDP Hamilton Centre, ON
Commissioner, I'm going to ask you a direct question, because my time is up. Do you believe that dark money is an issue within Canada? Please answer with just a very short yes or no.
5:20 p.m.
Commissioner of Lobbying, Office of the Commissioner of Lobbying
Do I believe what? I didn't understand.
5:20 p.m.
NDP
Matthew Green NDP Hamilton Centre, ON
Mr. Chair, at this point, I'm going to give notice of a motion, because my time is lapsing and I want to be clear on this. I'm going to give notice of a motion at this point, sir.
5:20 p.m.
NDP
Matthew Green NDP Hamilton Centre, ON
Thank you.
That, pursuant to Standing Order 108(3)(h) and in relation to the recent disclosures of sponsored travel by Stephen Ellis, Rosemary Falk, Philip Lawrence, Shannon Stubbs and John Williamson, which include more than $3,400 for champagne and wine and nearly $1,000 for steak dinners plus travel paid for by Canadians for Affordable Energy, the committee invite the Lobbying Commissioner, the Interim Conflict of Interest and Ethics Commissioner, and Dan McTeague, President of Canadians for Affordable Energy, to appear before the committee for no less than one meeting.
It's just a notice, sir. I wanted to make sure we put the committee on notice for that.
5:20 p.m.
Conservative
The Chair Conservative John Brassard
Thank you.
If you can distribute that in both official languages to the clerk, I would appreciate that, Mr. Green.
We have two and a half minutes each, and I have a question for Ms. Bélanger at the end.
Mr. Kurek, go ahead for two and a half minutes, please.
5:20 p.m.
Conservative
Damien Kurek Conservative Battle River—Crowfoot, AB
Thanks very much, Chair, and thank you to the commissioners for coming and speaking with us today.
Commissioner Maynard, you mentioned two things that I think are key here. Those are the quasi-constitutional right of access to information and the legal obligation that it be fulfilled.
Certainly, as we've spoken about before, there was universal agreement from all who came and testified before this committee on the importance of access to information. Unfortunately, there was one outlier when it came to whether the government is doing its job, and that happened to be the then minister.
I believe you said in your opening statement that the government departments violate these rules “on a daily basis”. Can you expand on that a little?
5:20 p.m.
Information Commissioner, Offices of the Information and Privacy Commissioners of Canada
Institutions are struggling to respond to the increased number of requests within the time limits provided by the act. The act says that the responses are supposed to be within 30 days. We see institutions such as the RCMP receiving more requests than they are able to respond to, so they are often missing that deadline. LAC is the same way, as is IRCC. That timeline or.... Deemed refusal is when you don't even receive a response. They're supposed to give you their response in 30 days or tell you they're going to take an extension. They don't do that.
5:20 p.m.
Conservative
Damien Kurek Conservative Battle River—Crowfoot, AB
Specifically, I know that when I filed an access to information request, cabinet confidence was one of the boxes I had to check. Certainly, it's troubling that it seems to be pending the goodwill of a particular government, and if there was hypothetically something to hide, it would be easy just to dismiss the importance of ensuring that Canadians could have access to something like cabinet confidence, and of course the revelations we heard today.
I'm wondering if you could provide comments on how we make sure we can rebuild the trust in our access to information system, among the challenges—I think writ large the erosion of trust—that the government faces, to ensure that Canadians have that quasi-constitutional access to information they deserve.
5:20 p.m.
Conservative
5:20 p.m.
Information Commissioner, Offices of the Information and Privacy Commissioners of Canada
Public servants need to know that the information belongs to Canadians. They are there to provide the information and not to hide it, or not to redact it. The first thing they need to do is change the culture of secrecy within the government so that information is shared.
5:25 p.m.
Conservative
The Chair Conservative John Brassard
Thank you. That was 19 seconds. I appreciate that.
Go ahead, Madame Fortier, for two and a half minutes, please.