Evidence of meeting #84 for Access to Information, Privacy and Ethics in the 44th Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was code.
A recording is available from Parliament.
6:20 p.m.
Conservative
The Chair Conservative John Brassard
Thank you, Mr. Green.
We're going to go for two and a half minutes to the Conservatives, followed by the Liberals to conclude this panel.
Mr. Kurek, your mom and dad are here. I'm willing to give you two and a half minutes, or do we go to Monsieur Gourde?
6:20 p.m.
Conservative
The Chair Conservative John Brassard
Okay.
Mr. Gourde, you have the floor for two and a half minutes.
6:20 p.m.
Conservative
Jacques Gourde Conservative Lévis—Lotbinière, QC
Thank you, Mr. Chair.
Mr. Dion, you said earlier that some people took ethics very seriously, others moderately and other much less. Personally, I'd call it elastic ethics in some cases.
You had a very good career at the Office of the Conflict of Interest and Ethics Commissioner. You worked there for seven years, didn't you?
6:20 p.m.
Former Conflict of Interest and Ethics Commissioner, As an Individual
My mandate was for seven years, but I had to step down after five years for health reasons.
6:20 p.m.
Conservative
Jacques Gourde Conservative Lévis—Lotbinière, QC
Okay.
Is there a profile of people who have elastic ethics? Are they people who couldn't care less about ethics?
6:20 p.m.
Former Conflict of Interest and Ethics Commissioner, As an Individual
It's a matter of personality. There are people are rather messy and others are extremely tidy and organized. That's a factor.
There are people who have managed their whole lives to do anything without consequences and can continue to do so. There are people who have always taken everything seriously; I was in that category. From my first year of school, I was afraid of the consequences if I broke a rule. There are people like that, but there are also people for whom the rules aren't a problem and who never respect them.
There are such people in our microcosm as well. However, I have to say that senior public servants, order-in-council appointees or ministers, for example, are responsible people, by definition. That's what I've always said. Only a minority of these people, 5% or 10%, perhaps have an elastic conscience, as you say.
6:20 p.m.
Conservative
Jacques Gourde Conservative Lévis—Lotbinière, QC
It's true that you took your job very seriously. You tabled very thorough reports, both damning and well explained.
Was it somewhat frustrating for you to see that, after all that hard work, there were no consequences, that there was media coverage for two or three days and then life went on as if nothing happened?
6:20 p.m.
Former Conflict of Interest and Ethics Commissioner, As an Individual
We are one of the players in the system. We need to know our role and its limitations, and accept them. When I accepted the position, I knew that I wasn't becoming prime minister and that I couldn't decide everything. It didn't cause me any sustained frustration. I may have felt some frustration in the hours that followed, but after that it was okay.
6:25 p.m.
Conservative
Jacques Gourde Conservative Lévis—Lotbinière, QC
After all that money was invested in the Office of the Commissioner, isn't it frustrating to see that there are absolutely no consequences?
6:25 p.m.
Former Conflict of Interest and Ethics Commissioner, As an Individual
There are consequences, but we haven't seen them yet. Sometimes it's something that happens in the medium or long term.
6:25 p.m.
Conservative
Jacques Gourde Conservative Lévis—Lotbinière, QC
We'll let democracy take its course.
Thank you, Mr. Dion.
6:25 p.m.
Conservative
The Chair Conservative John Brassard
Thank you, Mr. Gourde.
Ms. Fortier, you have two and a half minutes. That's what will bring this round of questions to an end.
6:25 p.m.
Liberal
Mona Fortier Liberal Ottawa—Vanier, ON
Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.
Gentlemen, thank you for being here. When I was minister, I had the privilege of working very well with your hard-working teams. I'd like to point out that you're doing a good job.
Mr. von Finckenstein, at your last appearance before the committee or at a previous appearance, you indicated that you have sufficient resources to fulfill your mandate. Is that still the case? If so, what are your priorities in the coming months? If not, can you explain how you plan to go about it?
6:25 p.m.
Interim Conflict of Interest and Ethics Commissioner, Office of the Conflict of Interest and Ethics Commissioner
At this time, we don’t have any resource problems. Without being excessive, our resources are adequate to do our jobs.
As I said earlier, my priority is that the application of the Conflict of Interest Act be truly focused on its purpose, that is, avoiding conflicts of interest, and that it be applied in a practical way, not automatically. It's not like tax, where you can say you're entitled to this deduction because of this or that. Applying the Conflict of Interest Act requires some judgment. You have to assess the situation, analyze the facts and examine the rules to determine how the act can be applied to restore public confidence in elected officials and the public service. It's essential never to lose sight of this fundamental objective.
6:25 p.m.
Liberal
Mona Fortier Liberal Ottawa—Vanier, ON
My colleague mentioned a case about which some information was shared today. Is this a situation you're concerned about that could be further investigated or examined as part of your mandate?
6:25 p.m.
Interim Conflict of Interest and Ethics Commissioner, Office of the Conflict of Interest and Ethics Commissioner
I can only do what the Conflict of Interest Act and the Conflict of Interest Code for Members of the House of Commons allow me to do. Do I like the situation your colleague mentioned? No, not at all. However, as I said, I don't know the details. This is the first time I've heard these facts. Naturally, this isn't something that's going to boost public confidence. Is there anything we can do? Can any other part of the government do something about the situation described by your colleague? As far as I know, there's almost nothing we can do.
6:25 p.m.
Conservative
The Chair Conservative John Brassard
Thank you, Ms. Fortier.
Gentlemen, I want to thank you for appearing before the committee today.
Interim Commissioner, thank you again for your frankness and your candour.
Mr. Dion, I'm not sure if we will see you again in front of this committee, but we wish you all the best. Thank you for your years of service to the people of Canada, and we wish you great health and happiness in retirement, sir. Thank you for being here.
6:25 p.m.
Some hon. members
Hear, hear!
6:25 p.m.
Conservative
The Chair Conservative John Brassard
There are just a couple of things before we go.
First of all, the foreign interference report that was completed by the committee is expected to be tabled in Parliament on Thursday morning during Routine Proceedings. As per the motion that was passed by the committee, we will be having a media conference, so we are going to need to know who is going to be available from each party for this media conference. We're planning on scheduling it for Thursday. If you can have that in to the clerk by noon tomorrow—the availability of members for the Thursday media conference—I would appreciate that.
6:25 p.m.
Liberal
6:25 p.m.
Conservative
The Chair Conservative John Brassard
We're working on the time right now.
Madam Clerk, do we have any idea, roughly?
6:25 p.m.
The Clerk
It will be after Routine Proceedings.
6:25 p.m.
Conservative
The Chair Conservative John Brassard
It will be after Routine Proceedings, for sure. We just have to firm up a time.
Let us know by noon tomorrow which representatives from each party will be available for that.
That's all that I have for today.
Thank you to our clerk, our analysts and the technical people who support us in these meetings.
This meeting is adjourned. Have a good evening, everyone.
