Information & Ethics Committee on Dec. 4th, 2023

[Matthew Green, NDP, Hamilton Centre, ON]

I think you even referenced that it was your opinion that we should stop advertising on these platforms. When you look at the risks and the rewards in terms of engagement and getting information out there, it's your position here today that the government should stop. Would that include all platforms?

[Matt Malone]

Yes. I believe it's unethical to advertise with social media companies if we have real concerns about data harvesting and illicit foreign interference.

Last year, the government spent a record $141 million on advertising, which was more than twice what the government spent on the administration of the Access to Information Act, and that included almost $2 million on TikTok.

It's really difficult to attend a committee hearing where there are all these concerns about TikTok's practices but then see the government throw money at TikTok, which, in my view, is an implicit endorsement of those practices that we're seeking to critique. I do believe, just to clarify and to make this point clear, that this concern applies to all social media companies.

I was very pleased that the government stopped advertising on Meta over the summer, but that was in retaliation for Meta's conduct with the Online News Act, so that was a bit of a different measure, but even as retaliatory, I support it.

[Matthew Green, NDP, Hamilton Centre, ON]

That's correct.

I need to go back to Mr. Andrey and Mr. Masoodi.

Has your organization conducted any specific research regarding the sharing of data between social media platforms such as TikTok and foreign entities, whether state actors, private sector or third party, that reuse their data for profiling, marketing and harmful purposes?

[Sam Andrey]

Thanks for the question, and thanks for the shout-out to Christelle, who is a wonderful member of our team, as well. I hope she is invited one day to this committee or to INDU on AI.

To answer your question, yes. Joe and I and another colleague, Yuan, wrote a paper that looked at the data storage practices in cross-border data transfers of social media platforms, which is called “Home Ice Advantage”, and we appreciated the shout-out to that report a few meetings ago, as well.

Joe, I don't know if you want to jump in here.

The question even came up a few rounds ago, about TikTok saying it stores its data in Singapore and the U.S. Yes, that's true, but that is an incomplete picture. There can still be remote access to those servers from any country in the world.

[Matthew Green, NDP, Hamilton Centre, ON]

Since I'm out of time, could you send us any highlights? It was referenced, but any specific highlights and concerns that you submit to this committee can be used as testimony.

Thank you.

[The Chair, Conservative, John Brassard]

Thank you, Mr. Green and Mr. Andrey.

Anything our witnesses have been asked to provide in writing, can you do that by this Friday, please? That would help the analysts. We have to put a timeline on it, so Friday at five o'clock, if you don't mind.

We have Mr. Barrett, and then Mr. Kelloway, Mr. Bains, Monsieur Villemure and Mr. Green, who will bring us home. You each have two and a half minutes.

Go ahead, Mr. Barrett.

[Michael Barrett, Conservative, Leeds—Grenville—Thousand Islands and Rideau Lakes, ON]

Thanks very much, Chair.

We have just a couple of quick minutes.

I want to hear just quickly from each of the witnesses, if I could. Do you see merit in requiring app stores, like the Google Play store and the Apple App Store, to require parental consent for downloading social media apps for children? My question for previous witnesses was for children under the age of 16, so I'll frame it the same way for each of you.

[Sam Andrey]

I can start.

I certainly don't think it would be harmful, but I think the logistics around age verification are tricky. I probably don't have time to get into all that right now, but I think, in principle, yes.

I might even suggest going further, since we're talking about trans-border data storage, which is to say that you could ban the transfer of minors' data to countries with insufficient equivalent protection, if you wanted to, as well.

Yes, I think that would be a fine thing to add.

[Michael Barrett, Conservative, Leeds—Grenville—Thousand Islands and Rideau Lakes, ON]

Thanks.

Mr. Malone, go ahead.

[Matt Malone]

I would not support that.

I understand the intent behind the proposal. I think it's well-intentioned, and I considered it seriously, but I think it would have adverse effects that may not be what is intended.

The reality is that we need a privacy law that protects children by default. It shouldn't be the responsibility of a parent. There are mixed harms and benefits with these technologies, and I don't believe that parents or older generations are the ones who are always the best at navigating these technologies. I've seen lots of surveys from within the Privy Council Office itself that show young people are the ones who use these technologies; 30% of teens get their news from TikTok, and a lot of older generations don't use them at all. One concern I would have is that I wouldn't feel comfortable entrusting that responsibility to all parents, but that's just my personal view.

What I would say, though, is that I do believe children should be explicitly referenced as a vulnerable population within Bill C-27. I think it's unacceptable that children and youth, in particular, have been removed from Bill C-27 and are omitted. That was a deliberate intent by the Ministry of Industry. I have an internal brief that talks about the reasons behind that, and I'd be happy to share that with you.

[The Chair, Conservative, John Brassard]

Thank you, Mr. Malone.

I'm sorry, but we don't have time. If you can do that by Friday at five, we'd appreciate that.

Mr. Bains, you have two and a half minutes. Go ahead, sir.

[Parm Bains, Liberal, Steveston—Richmond East, BC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Thank you to our witnesses for joining us today.

It's clear we have a generational risk or danger with online harms. Two tragedies have hit close to home for us in British Columbia. You may recall Amanda Todd's suicide in 2012, which was linked to online harassment, and the recent news of the 12-year-old boy whose suicide was linked to online sexual extortion.

Coincidentally, I have a 15-year-old daughter and a 12-year-old boy, so it's chilling to hear some of these stories that come out.

I'll go to Mr. Malone first.

You've noted in a previous interview that the collection of vast amounts of data creates “power imbalances” with users. Could you please expand on what you mean by that?

[Matt Malone]

I provided an answer to the MP for Mississauga—Erin Mills, but I'm happy to extrapolate a little bit on this, particularly in the context of Chinese influence and control.

There have been declarations that.... I'll use TikTok as an example, although the comments would apply to other entities, too. TikTok collects Canadian user data and stores it in the United States, Singapore and Malaysia. According to Chinese law, specifically the National Intelligence Law, there are requirements that companies operating in China co-operate with China. That's specifically article 7 of the law I just referenced. Article 10 of that law provides for extraterritorial application of that law. It wouldn't matter if the data is residing in a foreign jurisdiction. A company that has a base in China, which it does...and the Chinese state holds a 1% share, which allows control over TikTok and ByteDance.

It means that these problems aren't going to go away.

[Parm Bains, Liberal, Steveston—Richmond East, BC]

You mentioned several platforms earlier, like Bumble and others like that. What about messaging platforms like Signal, Telegram or WhatsApp?

We've seen a recent warning put out by Abbotsford police about WhatsApp phone calls that were made from outside Canada extorting local businesses—

[The Chair, Conservative, John Brassard]

Mr. Bains, you're over your time, but I do want to hear the response.

I don't know whom you're directing it to, but could we get a quick response, please?

[Parm Bains, Liberal, Steveston—Richmond East, BC]

I'll direct that to Mr. Malone again, please.

[Matt Malone]

I believe the reasons that folks are using Signal to evade law enforcement are the same reasons that ministers and political staffers are using Signal to avoid the Access to Information Act.

I think all of these social media companies should be banned on government-issued devices.

[The Chair, Conservative, John Brassard]

Well, that was an answer.

I appreciate that, Mr. Malone.

Mr. Villemure, you may go ahead for two and a half minutes.

[René Villemure, Bloc, Trois-Rivières, QC]

Mr. Malone, at the end of the day, what we are trying to do here is fight surveillance capitalism, data being its bread and butter.

How do we fight surveillance capitalism?

[Matt Malone]

I would say that it's important to show, not tell. You need privacy and data protection laws that show Canadians you take privacy and data protection seriously. This means that government conduct must be covered by robust and updated legislation. It also means that political parties, which are often very eager to call out the privacy harms perpetuated by private social media companies, must be covered by Canadian privacy legislation as well.

A lot of young people who would be listening to these thrilling discussions about privacy and data protection in Canada—data harvesting, illicit interference and all of that stuff—would probably come back at you with very different values because they're the ones who actually use these services. A lot of the demographic of lawmakers and members of the executive are the folks who are specifically not using them.

I think it's really hard to build credibility with young people that these issues—and surveillance capitalism in particular—are being taken seriously unless you make these laws applicable to government conduct and the conduct of political parties.

[René Villemure, Bloc, Trois-Rivières, QC]

Thank you very much.

[The Chair, Conservative, John Brassard]

Are you done, Mr. Villemure? You have some time left.

[René Villemure, Bloc, Trois-Rivières, QC]

I have time left? I don't have my timer to keep track.

[The Chair, Conservative, John Brassard]

All right.

Mr. Green, you have two and a half minutes. Go ahead, please.

[Matthew Green, NDP, Hamilton Centre, ON]

Thank you very much.

Mr. Andrey and Mr. Masoodi, I'm going to provide you the opportunity over the next minute to provide—