Evidence of meeting #13 for Finance in the 39th Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was audit.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Sheila Fraser  Auditor General of Canada
Jamie Hood  Principal, Office of the Auditor General of Canada

3:35 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Brian Pallister

Welcome back, committee members and guests.

I would appreciate our guests' patience for five minutes.

We'll immediately proceed to the motion of Mr. Loubier. I'll allow Mr. Loubier to speak to it for less than five minutes. We will then go to the Auditor General for her comments and questions, and we will proceed thereafter. We should do so at approximately 5:05.

We will come back to discussion and votes on Madam Wasylycia-Leis' motion and Mr. Loubier's motion at that point in time.

Mr. Loubier, the floor is yours for no more than five minutes.

3:35 p.m.

Bloc

Yvan Loubier Bloc Saint-Hyacinthe—Bagot, QC

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I think that Mr. Dykstra wants to speak to you.

3:35 p.m.

Conservative

Rick Dykstra Conservative St. Catharines, ON

Mr. Chair, we have copies of the motion.

3:35 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Brian Pallister

Thank you.

Mr. Loubier.

3:35 p.m.

Bloc

Yvan Loubier Bloc Saint-Hyacinthe—Bagot, QC

Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

Ms. Fraser might be interested in what I am going to say, because she has already studied this file, as did her predecessor.

About a year and a half ago, I tabled a motion before the finance committee requesting that a special committee be struck in order to study the Canada-Barbados Tax Convention. Barbados is a tax haven for Canadian investors, and their investments continue to grow.

Formerly, the Department of Finance even promoted Barbados on its website, as the best place where Canadian investors can avoid paying Canadian taxes. In 1994, Mr. Martin, who was then the Minister of Finance, tabled a bill in order to clean up the tax conventions between Canada and countries deemed to be tax havens. He did not want either the Auditor General at the time nor his successor to say that Canada's tax base was harmed by too much permissiveness regarding the transfer of capital.

Mr. Martin then tabled a bill that dealt with all tax conventions, with the exception of Barbados. Afterward, he adopted some amendments that we will have the opportunity to deal with later if my colleagues accept to strike such a special committee. Time and time again he proposed fiscal provisions whereby companies like his company, Canada Steamship Lines — an international marine transportation company, which was inactive and based in Barbados following the decision not to amend the tax convention with Barbados — might benefit from a made-to-measure tax system. We estimate, as does ATTAC-Quebec, an international organization for fiscal fairness, that this made-to-order fiscal system allowed Mr. Martin and his family to benefit from tax savings amounting to nearly $100 million since 1998.

Mr. Chairman, I know that you do not want us to vote on this matter immediately, but I will ask my colleagues to discuss this motion later on. Let me remind you that last year, the Conservatives had supported the idea of such a commission, not in order to attack Mr. Martin's family directly, but mainly to regulate fiscal relations with Barbados and the growth of direct investments in that country. The Conservatives also wanted to look into the fact that a customized tax system had been set up so as to favour a specific kind of economic activity — international marine transportation — for Barbados, and that CSL international's head office had been set up shortly after Mr. Martin brought in the first fiscal amendments.

The analysis will yield further details, but many tax experts from Quebec and from all over Canada raise questions about Mr. Martin's doings, and about this made-to-measure tax system. In my motion, there is a list of people whom we could invite, which includes recognized specialists who would be ready to testify before the special committee.

Mr. Chairman, thank you for your attention. Also, thank you for having allowed me to be the first intervenor, and I apologize to the Auditor General for having taken five minutes of her time.

3:35 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Brian Pallister

Merci, Monsieur Loubier.

We'll continue with the discussion after the Auditor General's testimony and subsequent questions.

Pursuant to Standing Order 108(2) and section 89 of the Canada Revenue Agency Act, the study of the first five years of the statutory review of the act will now continue with testimony from the Office of the Auditor General of Canada.

Madam Fraser, thank you for being here and for all your work and the work of your associates.

Would you proceed with your presentation?

3:40 p.m.

Sheila Fraser Auditor General of Canada

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

We thank you for this opportunity to speak to the finance committee about our experience with the Canada Revenue Agency, as you carry out the five-year review contemplated in subsection 89(1) of the Canada Revenue Agency Act.

Today I'm accompanied by Jamie Hood, the principal responsible for performance audits and the annual assessment of the agency's performance information, as well as Marion McMahon, the principal responsible for the annual financial statement audits that we conduct at the agency.

Mr. Chairman, we undertake a considerable amount of work each year in the agency — almost 43,000 staff hours are budgeted for 2006-2007. First, we conduct performance audits such as the status report on the collection of tax debts we tabled in the House on May 6. Second, the agency produces two financial statements that we audit on an annual basis. One financial statement presents how the agency has used its annual appropriations totalling about $3 billion, while the other presents the results of the activities the agency performs on behalf of other entities — primarily the administration and collection of more than $300 billion in taxes annually. Third, we assess the fairness and reliability of the information about the agency's performance that is included in its annual report. Fourth, each year we audit a statement showing the income and capital taxes assessed and paid to the provinces pursuant to federal-provincial tax collection agreements. Finally, from time to time the agency is included in other government-wide performance audits conducted by my office.

From a performance audit perspective, we have focused our efforts over the past five years primarily on examining how the agency manages the risk of non-compliance with tax laws. The agency has limited resources and cannot be everywhere at once. It must make trade-offs in deciding where to deploy resources to deal with competing threats to the tax base. We have found that, with some exceptions, the individual compliance programs are generally well designed but that the agency needs to improve its overall risk management framework and the manner in which it allocates its resources.

We have not yet completed any performance audits that look specifically at the new authorities granted to the agency. In 2004 we began an audit that was designed to assess the new competency-based human resources management regime being put in place. However, we found that progress was not sufficient to warrant an audit at that time. We felt, and other agency internal studies confirmed, that the agency had tried to do too much, too soon, without a full understanding of the cost, scope, and complexity of the task.

We provided the agency with a summary of concerns that we identified and indicated that we would return at a later date. We currently anticipate beginning an audit of human resources management in the fall of this year, with another human resources audit tentatively scheduled to begin about a year later.

From a financial audit perspective, we can say that the nature, quantity, and relevance of financial information being provided by the agency have improved since its departmental days. An important contributing factor to these improvements has been the legislative reporting requirements set out in sections 87 and 88 of the agency's enabling legislation. They require audited financial statements to be included in the agency's annual report, which is first submitted to the minister and then tabled in each house of Parliament. Our two annual audits of the agency's activities and its administered activities, as described earlier, have resulted in unqualified auditor's reports since the inception of the agency.

Although preparation and audit of these statements is not without significant challenges, particularly the statements addressing the agency's administered activities, we have observed incremental year-over-year improvement.

Our assessment of the fairness and reliability of the agency's performance information — another new reporting requirement included in the agency's legislation — has contributed to advances by CRA in developing its performance management and reporting framework. Corporate business plans now have clearer expected results, and the agency's performance information has steadily improved over the years in terms of providing more concrete, clear, and measurable results that are better linked to the agency's business strategies. Although much progress has been made, some improvements are still needed, for example, in reporting how the agency's administrative functions are contributing to the achievement of corporate objectives.

Mr. Chairman, there have also been positive developments in the tax collection arrangements with the provinces. These agreements were recently revamped and now include stronger accountability provisions — in particular, a requirement for my office to provide reports to the provinces on the proper design and effective operation of controls that have an impact on determining provincial revenues. The first of these new reports is expected to be issued sometime during 2007.

An important and unique aspect of the Canada Revenue Agency's CRA enabling legislation was the creation of a Board of Management. The Board of Management was given a mandate to oversee the organization and administration of the agency and the management of its resources, services, property, personnel, and contracts. Although we do not interact on a regular basis with the board as a whole, we believe that it has instilled a heightened sense of accountability in the agency. The board has also created several committees to deal with specialized aspects of its responsibilities, including an audit committee.

The audit committee has had a positive impact on financial oversight of the agency's operations. It is comprised of experienced, well-qualified financial professionals. The committee meets regularly, with meetings attended by representatives of both internal audit and my office. We have observed the members playing an important and effective role with both management and our staff.

What can my office say about the extent to which the agency has lived up to the expectations set out when it was created? Well, I believe we can say two things. First, we can identify areas where specific aspects of the agency's enabling legislation have led to positive changes. The legislative requirements for audited financial statements and for an assessment of the fairness and reliability of the performance information included in the agency's annual report have improved the quality of performance information available for decision-makers and the public at large. Further, the enhanced oversight provided by the board of management has contributed to strengthened business planning, a more rigorous performance measurement framework, and improved accountability to the minister and the provinces.

Second, in terms of the benefits anticipated from the agency's new human resource management and administrative authorities, there are indications that progress has been slower than anticipated. Our attempt to audit the agency's competency based resourcing initiative has been deferred to allow the initiative to reach a more mature state. And performance reporting related to the administrative areas where the agency was granted special flexibilities currently provides limited insight into the impact the agency's corporate services are having on the organization.

Mr. Chair, that concludes our opening statement. We would be pleased to answer any questions that committee members may have.

Thank you.

3:45 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Brian Pallister

Thank you very much, Madam Fraser.

We'll proceed with seven-minute rounds.

Mr. Savage, to begin.

3:45 p.m.

Liberal

Michael Savage Liberal Dartmouth—Cole Harbour, NS

Thank you, Chair.

If I have any time that's not used, my colleague Mr. McKay will take that up. It seldom seems to happen that way, but....

Thank you, Madam Fraser, and the witnesses, for appearing today and for the work you've done as we have a look at these first five years.

In your comments you have been pretty specific in areas where you think there has been improvement. You also indicate some areas, such as human resources management, where it's generally been a little slower than you might have expected or wanted.

I wonder if you could just tell us, in general, how it's doing overall. If you were to give it a grade, how would you say it's done so far, as we review this?

3:45 p.m.

Auditor General of Canada

Sheila Fraser

As I mentioned in the opening statement, we haven't specifically done an audit or looked at how all of the new flexibilities have been put in place, and I always hesitate to give grades, but I would say we have been very impressed by the accountability framework that has been put in place. The new board of management that was introduced—and we obviously work a lot with the audit committee—have certainly brought a rigour and discipline, and I would say even more attention to financial management issues than we would see in a department generally. I think the fact that the agency has to produce financial statements that are then audited is one of the contributing factors to that.

I would just point out that these financial statements are very complex, because since the government has moved to full accrual accounting, the agency has to estimate at the end of the year all the revenues based on assessments. So it's quite a complex exercise to go through to determine the revenues that are in those financial statements. While there have been some difficulties--and we've certainly mentioned them in the public accounts--we have seen a lot of improvement over the five-year period.

3:50 p.m.

Liberal

Michael Savage Liberal Dartmouth—Cole Harbour, NS

Thank you for that.

You mentioned somewhere in here having a more positive relationship with the provinces in terms of collection. Can you talk about that a little bit, about how that's working and why it's working, in your view?

3:50 p.m.

Auditor General of Canada

Sheila Fraser

There were new agreements reached with the provinces within the past year. I think in part some of that was provoked by the issues that came in 2002, when there was an overpayment by the federal government and it created a lot of concern about the systems. There are new mechanisms that are built into that, and more accountability to the provinces.

One of the requirements on that will be that we will have to give an opinion on the control systems within the agency. We're actually working with our provincial colleagues now to determine which systems we will be working on and how we will be doing that going forward. So there is a lot more discussion, and there are new agreements and more accountability back to the provinces themselves.

3:50 p.m.

Liberal

Michael Savage Liberal Dartmouth—Cole Harbour, NS

So is that something the provinces would agree with? Do they feel it's a better relationship as well?

3:50 p.m.

Auditor General of Canada

Sheila Fraser

I would hesitate to answer on behalf of the provinces. I think you should ask them.

3:50 p.m.

Liberal

Michael Savage Liberal Dartmouth—Cole Harbour, NS

I thought that might be the case. Okay.

Let me ask you a question, then, about an area where you see there could be some improvement, or at least you haven't been able to fully audit yet, and that's the competency-based human resource management.

He says here that the agency perhaps tried to do too much too soon. Can you talk about the concerns that you did identify in advance of going back for the audit?

3:50 p.m.

Auditor General of Canada

Sheila Fraser

As we mentioned, we wanted to begin an audit in 2004 to look at the new systems that were being put in place. The agency was really moving toward a very different system from what had existed previously when it was a department. When we got into that, we realized they were not as far advanced as we had initially thought they might be.

So even with things as basic as having a description of competencies that will be required for the different positions, we had sort of expected that people would have been doing this. But we found out in that initial review that in fact, people were describing the competencies for their own jobs only when there was a competition, because it was a very long and elaborate process to do that. So there weren't a lot of descriptions that had been done.

I'm just trying to remember what some of the others were. There were staffing actions, as well. I know through the assessments, the competency profiles, there was a lot of work that had to be done to get the system the way it had initially been foreseen, and that work wasn't very far advanced.

So we raised a number of issues that we saw in this initial survey and brought them to management's attention, but we felt it wouldn't have been warranted at that point to go in and do an audit, because they weren't at a phase yet where it was really implemented. But now we think they've had sufficient time, given that it's been two years since we raised those issues, and we will be beginning an audit on that within the coming months.

3:50 p.m.

Liberal

Michael Savage Liberal Dartmouth—Cole Harbour, NS

Is that at a red flag stage for you, or is it at a concerned stage, or is it just at a too-early-to-identify stage?

3:50 p.m.

Auditor General of Canada

Sheila Fraser

There was a bit of all three.

When we do the survey phases, generally through interviews, we don't get into the actual audit per se. There were a number of issues. For example, with the competency profiles and so on, people were telling us they weren't done, but we didn't actually go and audit. We said this is an issue that you should probably do more work on to see if there is substance to this concern.

Even the internal reviews of the agency indicated many of the same issues that we had flagged, so we felt pretty comfortable giving the agency that particular letter.

3:55 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Brian Pallister

The next questioner will be Mr. St-Cyr. You have seven minutes.

3:55 p.m.

Bloc

Thierry St-Cyr Bloc Jeanne-Le Ber, QC

Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

I would like to get an idea of the agency's performance or efficiency in terms of what it costs the government to collect $1 of revenue. This information must be available somewhere. How does that amount compare to other countries, and to what extent is such a comparison applicable? Have you looked into this matter? Do you have any data on the issue?

3:55 p.m.

Auditor General of Canada

Sheila Fraser

We do not assess the efficiency of programs, agencies, or administrations. We don't have this information, but perhaps the agency's annual report refers to this. I know that there is a sort of tax administrators' association comprised of members from a number of countries which meets on occasion, every year I think.

3:55 p.m.

Bloc

Thierry St-Cyr Bloc Jeanne-Le Ber, QC

You don't track this data over the years?

3:55 p.m.

Auditor General of Canada

3:55 p.m.

Bloc

Thierry St-Cyr Bloc Jeanne-Le Ber, QC

By and large, have the efforts made to ensure tax laws are complied with, i.e. to avoid tax fraud and tax evasion meant that more money is recovered than the cost of this process to recover the money? I hope so. If this is the case, by what proportion? If this proportion is quite high, what could be done to recover even more money? Is there a return on investment?

3:55 p.m.

Auditor General of Canada

Sheila Fraser

Once again, that involves assessing programs and activities, something we do not do. However, I am sure the agency will have statistics on that.

Our work involves determining whether the agency is focusing on the highest-risk sectors, given the resources allocated to it. Does it have a model whereby it assesses risk and channels resources accordingly where the risks are highest? There are different types of tax, and overall, we determine whether the auditing framework, training, etc. are satisfactory. The agency must first enhance risk identification and, then, allocate resources accordingly. We often make such a recommendation in our audits so that sectors are better targeted and resources assigned where they will have the greatest impact.