Evidence of meeting #66 for Finance in the 39th Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was banks.

A recording is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Terry Campbell  Vice-President, Policy, Canadian Bankers Association
Karen Michell  Vice-President, Banking Operations, Canadian Bankers Association
Serge Dupont  Assistant Deputy Minister, Financial Sector Policy Branch, Department of Finance
Linda Routledge  Director, Consumer Affairs, Canadian Bankers Association

11:20 a.m.

Liberal

The Vice-Chair Liberal Massimo Pacetti

Can we get started? The sooner we get started, the sooner we finish. We all have things to do.

The meeting is called for 11 o'clock to 12:30. I'm going to allow the Canadian Bankers Association their five to ten minutes for opening remarks.

The Department of Finance has already appeared, just previously, with the Minister of Finance making his presentation.

I will allow members to ask questions until 12:30, but I don't think we need the full time. What I'm going to do is start with five-minute rounds, then continue with those until every member has asked questions, and then I am in your hands.

Before we begin, we have some housekeeping. We need to approve the operational budget for extra costs to have witnesses appear, and there are some other miscellaneous charges. We are asking for $9,200. Is that okay?

(Motion agreed to)

11:20 a.m.

Liberal

The Vice-Chair Liberal Massimo Pacetti

Thank you.

We can start. We're here pursuant to--

Pursuant to the order of reference of Thursday, December 7, 2006, today we will consider Bill C-37, An Act to amend the law governing financial institutions and to provide for related and consequential matters.

We will now hear from Mr. Campbell, from the Canadian Bankers Association.

11:20 a.m.

Terry Campbell Vice-President, Policy, Canadian Bankers Association

Thank you very much, Mr. Chairman and members of the committee. I really appreciate the opportunity to contribute to your review of Bill C-37, the amendments to the Bank Act and other federal statutes.

My name is Terry Campbell, and I am vice-president of policy at the Canadian Bankers Association. With me today are my colleagues Karen Michell, the vice-president of banking operations; and Linda Routledge, the director of our consumer affairs area.

Mr. Chair and members of the committee, the banking industry believes strongly in the importance of ensuring that the legislative and regulatory framework is reviewed regularly in order to keep it up to date with technological developments, to eliminate obsolete provisions that no longer reflect sector realities, and to make the framework as efficient as possible for the benefit of Canadian consumers and the industry's competitiveness. Canada's banks and other financial institutions operate in an environment of rapidly increasing regulatory burden, particularly in light of the explosion of international regulation, which impacts the regulatory environment here in Canada. Since this environment affects the ability of institutions to innovate and serve their customers, it's critical that policy-makers and legislators here in Canada ensure that the legislative framework provides as much flexibility as possible and avoids imposing unnecessary or prescriptive measures.

With these principles in mind, we were deeply disappointed that the government did not adopt our proposals for the insurance rules. In our view, the facts of the case—the benefits to consumers of removing out-of-date restrictions and the positive experiences in other jurisdictions that do not have these restrictions—told a good, common-sense public policy story. Nevertheless, as we heard from the minister this morning and as we've heard from the minister in the past, the government has made it clear that changes will not be made to the insurance rules, so we are turning our attention to the piece of legislation at hand, Bill C-37.

As you know from commentary this morning, the bill is focused on technical matters. Those matters are the focus of our commentary to you today. Describing these matters as technical doesn't mean they're not important for consumers or the efficient operation of the marketplace. Indeed, in some key areas the government has taken positive steps in the direction of modernizing the framework.

One such step that we would like to highlight was mentioned this morning, and that was the government's proposal to amend the Bills of Exchange Act to allow for the introduction of electronic cheque imaging. Canada has one of the most highly efficient cheque-clearing systems in the world, but it's still largely based on the physical clearing of paper cheques. Cheques drawn on one bank and cashed or deposited at another must be physically transported between banks and processing centres—sometimes right across the country—before they can be cleared. The proposed amendments would allow financial institutions to use electronic images of cheques. In effect, rather than having to physically transport pieces of paper, images of the cheques could be sent electronically. Making an already-efficient system even more efficient will speed up the cheque clearing process, reduce the amount of time that funds are held, and, importantly, will reduce risk.

All of this will bring real benefit to consumers. In fact, as was mentioned, the banking industry has been working with the government on this and has agreed to reduce the maximum period for the very small number of cheques that actually have holds on them from ten business days to seven business days by April, and to then reduce that further to four business days upon full implementation of the Canadian Payments Association's cheque imaging system.

Another positive step in Bill C-37 is the proposal to streamline the foreign bank entry regime. We have a highly competitive financial services marketplace in Canada, with some fifty foreign bank subsidiaries and foreign bank branches competing to provide services to individual and business consumers.

While Canada's market is open to the entry of foreign banks, the actual structure of the legislation is highly complex, cumbersome, and difficult to navigate. The rules apply to real foreign banks as well as to what are called near-banks, or companies that are not banks in their own country but want to undertake activities in Canada that normally would not be regulated. The result of having to deal with both types of entities in the legislation currently is a very convoluted set of approval processes for near-banks, and these processes don't seem to be necessary.

We'll see the details in the regulations ultimately, but it appears that in this area Bill C-37 does help to streamline the system by focusing the rules on real foreign banks wishing to enter this country.

While we do think Bill C-37 does take positive steps, there are some areas where we feel some targeted changes would improve the bill. For example, in clause 31 of the bill, the government is proposing to extend the current disclosure requirements to deposit-type registered plans such as RRSPs.

We understand what the government is trying to achieve here, but we think the actual drafting of the bill is simply unworkable. The bill doesn't adequately distinguish among registered plans, deposit accounts, and deposit products; it doesn't take adequately into account that registered plans often contain products that are not federally regulated or are offered by institutions that are not federally regulated. In short, we think the current drafting of the bill could actually frustrate the government's policy intents and potentially confuse consumers.

We think this is a provision that needs further tinkering. It's a very technical area, and we're offering to work with the government to explore ways to address the technical issues.

A further and in effect final point we would like to raise this morning concerns bank holding companies. As you know, in the 2001 round of reform of the Bank Act—the regular five-year review—banks were allowed to structure themselves as holding companies, as banks in most other countries around the world are allowed to do. The option held out the promise of greater flexibility and a more targeted and streamlined regulatory system.

Unfortunately, while the power to create bank holding companies was provided in 2001, other rules in the Bank Act make it very difficult for banks to actually convert to this structure. In our view, it adds or could add regulation rather than streamlining it. The practical result is that six years after the 2001 reforms, the bank holding company model is still not an option that banks can use.

In effect, what the rules say is this: a bank can enter into such transactions as offering loans or guarantees to its downstream subsidiaries without restrictions, but if those same subsidiaries become sister companies of the bank under a holding company, then restrictions on transactions between the bank and its sister companies now must be imposed, even though no new risk has entered the system.

We are working with the government and with the superintendent's office to sort through these issues, but in our view more work is need. Given this committee's interest in the efficient operations of the financial sector, we would encourage the committee to urge the government to take steps to ensure that the holding company model is in fact a workable option for the industry.

Chair and members of the committee, in conclusion, let me thank you again very much, on behalf of my colleagues, for the opportunity to provide our thoughts and to engage in some discussion with you.

To sum up, while we have some improvements to the bill that we would encourage you to consider, we feel that this is a technical bill that makes useful improvements for the benefit of consumers and the efficiency of the system. The goal of making the regulatory system as efficient and effective as possible and of making the system as supportive of innovation and international competitiveness as possible is an ongoing task. Bill C-37 is an important step in this process, but of course we look forward to continuing to work with the government and with members of this committee on these important goals.

That concludes my remarks. We look forward to discussion with you.

11:25 a.m.

Liberal

The Vice-Chair Liberal Massimo Pacetti

Thank you, Mr. Campbell.

Just to go through our procedure a little bit, if you're going to request amendments at this point, I would suggest that you speak to one of the members and have that member present the amendments, because we're going to perhaps go to clause-by-clause next week, at one point or another.

11:25 a.m.

Vice-President, Policy, Canadian Bankers Association

Terry Campbell

Fair enough.

11:25 a.m.

Liberal

The Vice-Chair Liberal Massimo Pacetti

Members, let us start.

I have Mr. McKay, then Monsieur Paquette and Mr. Dykstra. We'll try with five-minute rounds.

11:25 a.m.

Liberal

John McKay Liberal Scarborough—Guildwood, ON

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Thank you, Mr. Campbell—and the others; I'm anticipating they'll want to chime in here from time to time.

As you know, any time you deal with banks, everybody has a negative bank story to tell, and you end up side-barred into a whole bunch of other issues. While I don't think there's much disagreement among members about the substance of this bill, there are a few things that grate here, which possibly there's an opportunity to fix.

My overall impression is that the amendments proposed are really catching up to the 20th century, when we're in fact in the 21st century. They don't address the core issue, which is that Canadians have embraced electronic banking very enthusiastically, whether computer banking, ATMs, or whatever. It speaks to the issue of what they expect in their electronic network and how the banks and the regulatory regime, in some respects, haven't kept up.

I referred earlier to a question to the minister, which I would appreciate you and the officials taking a crack at, with respect to moneys being removed from an account to pay for a bill, which is presumably within the payment clearance system, and that transaction not being instantaneous. We still seem to want to bundle checks across the country. Whether it's four days or seven days, it's rather irrelevant to electronic transfers these days. I would be interested in your general comments. You heard the question specifically.

I buttress that question as well with an e-mail I received from a constituent, and again I'd ask for your comment on this: “We have, for as long as it has been offered, viewed our statements via the bank's electronic payment and presentation service. Unlike other monthly statements”—for example, hydro, taxes, or whatever—“we view through the servers, however, the option to download an image of our Visa statement is not available.” So he can't watch his statement accumulating over the course of the month, for some strange reason.

The general comment is that you seem to already be behind the times, and all this is going to do is create more frustrations and irritations. I'd ask you to respond, both you and the officials, not only to the inquiry I sent to the minister but also to this particular question.

11:30 a.m.

Vice-President, Policy, Canadian Bankers Association

Terry Campbell

I'll lead off with a few comments, and then I'll turn to my colleague Karen Michell.

First of all, I think you're absolutely right when you say that Canadians are enthusiastically adopting new electronic ways of banking. In fact, our own polling and the statistics show that paper usage is declining and electronic usage is just taking off like a rocket. I absolutely agree with you.

I also agree that it's a very fast-moving marketplace and it is really quite critical that we endeavour to keep the regulatory framework as up-to-date, 21st century-wise, as possible. There's no question about that. And that's always a challenge, because there are rules and regulations and process. So I take those two points.

But on your specific point, sir, about the electronic payments and your constituent's question, I'll turn to my colleague Karen Michell.

11:30 a.m.

Karen Michell Vice-President, Banking Operations, Canadian Bankers Association

Thank you.

Well, of course in an electronic age we're all used to having instant communication. At the push of a button, we can send an e-mail to one another. But in the payment system, we have a very sophisticated, safe, and secure system, and it requires a number of processes behind it. In terms of paying a bill, there are a number of billers who participate through the Canadian Payments Association and adhere to their rule H6. I'd encourage you to ask them more about that. What it does is say that any biller who adheres to it will agree that the date on which you make your payment is the date on which they will post it to your account, so you won't incur any interest charges or losses there.

In terms of billers who are not part of that system, billers and financial institutions both advise that you should be paying your bill a day or two in advance to make sure it goes through. The reason is that if all billers and financial institutions were completely interconnected, the system would be only as good as its weakest link. Rather, what we do is have batch processing at the end of the day and transfer the funds from the financial institution of the payer to the biller.

As to the technical aspects, I'd certainly encourage you to ask the CPA more about them. It's a system that's very secure and very safe, and this provides a number of benefits to consumers. In Canada, with the payment system we have, if you're depositing a cheque, for example, you are able to get access to those funds immediately in the vast majority of cases. And that's essentially the financial institution giving you credit.

11:35 a.m.

Liberal

John McKay Liberal Scarborough—Guildwood, ON

Excuse me, just for a second. This is a Visa account. Surely a Visa account is part of the electronic payment system and should be instantaneous. Wouldn't you agree with that? It's just a matter of floats.

11:35 a.m.

Vice-President, Banking Operations, Canadian Bankers Association

Karen Michell

There are a number of different billers participating in this system where it is instantaneous. Under rule H6 of the Canadian Payments Association, the biller who participates will say yes, the day you pay is the day it's posted to your account. Absolutely. But not all billers in the country participate.

I can tell you that the Canadian Payments Association is planning to issue a document in the near future about the electronic bill system in Canada. They are looking for public input on it.

11:35 a.m.

Liberal

John McKay Liberal Scarborough—Guildwood, ON

I understand the response to the question, but it still begs the question as to why on a Visa account the posting is not instantaneous. That doesn't make sense to me.

11:35 a.m.

Liberal

The Vice-Chair Liberal Massimo Pacetti

At least within 24 hours.

11:35 a.m.

Liberal

John McKay Liberal Scarborough—Guildwood, ON

Not even within 24 hours. It should be instantaneous.

11:35 a.m.

Liberal

The Vice-Chair Liberal Massimo Pacetti

Well, depending on whether there's a batch process. I mean, let's be reasonable here.

Can we go on to Monsieur Paquette and then we can come back to that?

Mr. Paquette, you have five minutes.

11:35 a.m.

Bloc

Pierre Paquette Bloc Joliette, QC

Mr. Dupont, in its presentation, the association focuses, among other things, on the fact that the bill doesn't adequately distinguish among registered plans, deposit accounts and deposit products. Furthermore, certain products in registered plans are apparently not federally regulated.

Is that a problem that you've identified or that you're working on? Is the association incorrectly interpreting the bill?

11:35 a.m.

Serge Dupont Assistant Deputy Minister, Financial Sector Policy Branch, Department of Finance

Since then, we've had talks with the association, and we're now studying how we can ensure that, from a technical standpoint, the wording of the bill produces the result we wanted to achieve, that is to say to ensure that consumers have relevant information on registered products.

11:35 a.m.

Bloc

Pierre Paquette Bloc Joliette, QC

Does that mean that you could eventually bring forward amendments?

11:35 a.m.

Assistant Deputy Minister, Financial Sector Policy Branch, Department of Finance

Serge Dupont

We're seeing whether we can propose better wording.

11:35 a.m.

Bloc

Pierre Paquette Bloc Joliette, QC

At another meeting, we spoke with the minister about the $50 amount that constitutes consumers' legal liability for their credit cards. You explained to me that that was deliberately included in the code and that there might also be jurisdictional problems. Let's try to go further than we did earlier.

11:35 a.m.

Assistant Deputy Minister, Financial Sector Policy Branch, Department of Finance

Serge Dupont

As regards the $50 limit, I'm told it applies under provincial legislation, in Quebec and in British Columbia.

11:35 a.m.

Bloc

Pierre Paquette Bloc Joliette, QC

Is that under Quebec's Consumer Protection Act?

11:35 a.m.

Assistant Deputy Minister, Financial Sector Policy Branch, Department of Finance

Serge Dupont

I don't know which act it is, but it's under a provincial act.

Some credit card issuing companies, including the best known ones, have no-liability policies. Consumer liability is nil. That's a deliberate gesture by those institutions to promote their corporate image and to inspire consumer trust.

Furthermore, to the extent that we want to develop a code that can apply to all parties, including those not federally regulated, a voluntary approach makes it possible to include everyone, whereas, if we wanted to legislate, that would only cover part of the system, not the rest, and would not necessarily produce the best results. And we're seeing that some are voluntarily going beyond the statutory requirements.

11:35 a.m.

Bloc

Pierre Paquette Bloc Joliette, QC

Mr. Campbell, further to Mr. Dupont's remarks, would the Bankers Association be prepared to have electronic payments subject to this $50 limit in the context of a code reworked by all stakeholders?

11:35 a.m.

Vice-President, Policy, Canadian Bankers Association

Terry Campbell

There is already a code in place.

Pardon me, but it's preferable that I speak in English.

As Mr. Dupont said, the credit card companies and issuers have agreed among themselves on the limit. There already is a code in place on debit cards. and there has been for about 15 years in fact. It works very well. As was mentioned this morning, it's actually overseen by the Financial Consumer Agency of Canada. If there are issues of fraud and so on, it provides a process so consumers will get their money back fairly quickly.

On the point made earlier about the importance of keeping the system up electronically, we know the government is going to be undertaking consultations on electronic...and when they call upon, as I know they will, we will certainly be participating.

Karen, did you have anything to add?