Evidence of meeting #90 for Finance in the 39th Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was brown.

A recording is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Robert Brown  As an Individual
Gilles Larin  University of Sherbrooke
Gérard Lalonde  Acting Director, Tax Policy Branch, Department of Finance

11:05 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Brian Pallister

Good morning to my colleagues and to our witnesses who are, I understand, waiting, one of them waiting by video conference.

Pursuant to Standing Order 108(2), we have an information session on tax avoidance and tax havens.

We continue with our discussion of tax havens and tax avoidance.

I will remind the witnesses that they have five minutes to make their presentation.

Not seeing our witness Mr. Brown in the room, at this point I will ask if the technology is available for us to begin hearing the testimony of five minutes from Gilles Larin, from the University of Sherbrooke.

Is this witness available? Is the witness here?

We are having some technical issues at this point. No video is incoming.

Where is Mr. Brown?

We will suspend for cinq minutes.

Is Mr. Brown on the video right now? Mr. Brown, do you hear me, sir?

Not yet. Okay, we'll suspend for a minute while we get the technical difficulties sorted out.

11:09 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Brian Pallister

Mr. Brown, do you hear me?

11:09 a.m.

Dr. Robert Brown As an Individual

Yes.

11:09 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Brian Pallister

Very good.

I'd like to welcome you to the committee and invite you to utilize five minutes to make some introductory comments, if you'd be so kind.

Then, following hearing from both Mr. Brown and Mr. Larin, we will move to questions from the committee members to you.

I will give you five minutes to make an opening comment, if you would. Mr. Brown, would you like to proceed?

11:09 a.m.

As an Individual

Dr. Robert Brown

Yes, thank you.

My background is that I have over 40 years of experience in dealing with international tax issues. I have the privilege of being a former chair of the Canadian Tax Foundation, the Canadian Institute of Chartered Accountants, and the professional firm of Price Waterhouse. My views, however, are my own.

Tax avoidance is not an easy subject to deal with or even define. It relates largely to the legal use of tax minimization opportunities that go beyond the intention of the legislators. One definition is that tax avoidance is just an overenthusiastic response to tax incentives.

Tax havens are just as hard to define. Each country chooses its own tax system with its own rules, its own rates, and its own exemptions. A country may resemble a tax haven for some purposes because it does not tax certain types of income, but for other purposes it may have a well-developed and heavy tax system. Switzerland, Barbados, and the Netherlands may be examples.

Tax havens of all sorts offer major opportunities for tax avoidance through the growing ability of corporations and individuals to move income to such jurisdictions without actually moving operations.

Canada wisely does not tax most profits earned abroad and repatriated to Canadian parent companies. If a Canadian company decides to operate in Ireland, which has a 12.5% corporate tax rate, it is then competing with Irish and other foreign companies subject to this relatively low rate. Requiring Canadian investors in Ireland to pay more taxes in Canada would simply mean that Canadians would not do business in Ireland. Rather, the central concern of Canadian tax policy must be that the foreign operations of Canadian companies should not erode the Canadian tax revenue base or create incentives for the inefficient allocation of resources.

While I believe the present structure of the Canadian system is sound, nevertheless there are instances in which the system is being abused. An example would be the infamous double-dip, which gives you two deductions for interest expense. Then there is the fact that Canada has a relatively high corporate tax rate, which along with other features induces foreign parent companies to artificially move interest and other deductions into Canada.

The legitimate foreign operations of Canadian companies offer substantial advantages to Canada. They support Canadian exports and they give Canadian corporations the ability to grow and reach a critical mass so as to compete against the enterprises of other countries. Canada would be the poorer if our companies did not have a supportive tax system to enable them to operate and compete. We need to be careful before disallowing the costs that Canadian companies incur to finance such operations abroad. However, I believe that the following broad actions are required so that we can continue to support the legitimate needs of Canadian enterprises investing abroad while maintaining the integrity of our tax system.

Our tax system is a high-maintenance structure. Due to changes in tax rules abroad, the growing complexity of business organizations, and the increasing sophistication of taxpayers, new tax planning techniques are constantly emerging, with adverse affects on the revenue base.

We need better enforcement of the present system and we need a greater willingness, after consultation, to modify our rules in order to achieve fairness. Our system should concentrate on seeking to defend the Canadian revenue base while facilitating the legitimate needs of international operations.

Our overall tax system needs to be competitive internationally. This does not mean a race to the bottom in taxes on business, but it does mean we should recognize that our overall tax burdens on business are getting out of line and hampering the ability of Canadian companies to compete. While we are lowering our corporate rates, other countries are doing so faster, and our aggregate tax burden on business investment is high. We must emphasize that a broad and neutral tax base with low rates is preferable to a system with distorting incentives and loopholes.

We need to work cooperatively with other countries to block tax avoidance and tax haven abuses through tax and information-sharing treaties and through international alliances.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

11:10 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Brian Pallister

Thank you very much, Mr. Brown.

I understand we have no video for our University of Sherbrooke witness today, so this will be solely on your audio.

Monsieur Larin, do you hear me, sir? Very good. I invite you to proceed to make five minutes of introductory remarks.

11:10 a.m.

Professor Gilles Larin University of Sherbrooke

Good morning, ladies and gentlemen.

I will make my remarks in French, but of course I will be able to answer any questions in English that may be raised from the floor.

I would like to speak to you about tax havens, which are, in my view, a subcategory of offshore financial centres.

An offshore financial centre has been defined, both by the OECD and the International Monetary Fund, as a jurisdiction in which there are a high number of financial institutions. Most of the transactions are initiated abroad. Most of the institutions are controlled by non-residents. Assets and liabilities are totally out of proportion to the domestic economy. There is low or nil taxation, a very simplified financial legislation, and of course banking secrecy.

This last criterion corresponds to what is normally referred to as a tax haven. I would be repeating Mr. Brown's intervention earlier if I said that all CFOs are not necessarily tax havens, as he correctly indicated. Switzerland and the Cayman Islands have very much more rigorous manifestations of control over establishments in the area.

What is particularly interesting, though, is the importance that direct investment by Canadians offshore has taken over the last few years. If I look at the statistics for 2006--the last year for which they are available--which have just been published, direct investments by Canadians abroad exceed the opposite, which is direct investments by foreign residents into Canada, by about 15%. What is even more striking is that in terms of ranking of countries of destination for our foreign investment, Barbados occupies the third rank after the United States and the U.K. Bermuda is not far behind, and Hungary is ranked number eight.

It's very surprising that this growth has taken place, and certainly there's something very strange in doing business in such a way that taxation is a primary consideration. Whereas in the past taxation was on the back burner in terms of policy-making in business, taxation has become the key player in planning the business.

What can we do? Because I'm limited to a short period of time, I could present a few points, noting, for instance, as a first point, that some operations in offshore financial centres are totally legitimate. Hotel construction and complexes are probably much more easily financed because the banking laws are less constraining than are the Canadian laws.

One of the principal characteristics we need—and I add this to this information—is much better sharing of information between the Canadian government and the countries of these offshore financial centres in which our direct investment is located. There have been signatures of agreement so far by almost all offshore financial centres. The problem is applying the agreements correctly. This is what we have to work on.

We also have to review our tax treaties with other countries so as to remove the distortion that has been created over the years. The original intention of tax treaties was to avoid double taxation when a subsidiary in a foreign country paid tax in that country and then repatriated the profits to Canada. They wouldn't want to pay tax twice on the same amount of money. But the rules have been reversed over the years, and it has become very often a situation of double no-taxation, which may sound strange, but it is taking place anyway.

Finally, more specifically, we need to make sure the public understands that there is a strong distinction between evasion and avoidance.

11:20 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Brian Pallister

Merci, monsieur Larin and Mr. Brown. Thank you very much, both of you, for your testimony.

We'll move now to questions from committee members. We will begin with Mr. Pacetti.

Mr. Pacetti, you have five minutes.

11:20 a.m.

Liberal

Massimo Pacetti Liberal Saint-Léonard—Saint-Michel, QC

Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

Before I begin,

Is it possible to have a copy of the study?

If you could send us the study with the direct investments that are foreign--

11:20 a.m.

Gilles Larin

Which study are you referring to?

11:20 a.m.

Liberal

Massimo Pacetti Liberal Saint-Léonard—Saint-Michel, QC

The one where you refer to how much money is invested offshore versus money that comes into Canada, and I think you quoted as a.... Could you send us that?

11:20 a.m.

Prof. Gilles Larin

You have access to it from your computer. It's--

11:20 a.m.

Liberal

Massimo Pacetti Liberal Saint-Léonard—Saint-Michel, QC

Could you just send us the link, then? I'd like to know.

11:20 a.m.

Prof. Gilles Larin

It's Statistics Canada.

11:20 a.m.

Liberal

Massimo Pacetti Liberal Saint-Léonard—Saint-Michel, QC

But we can't hear it clearly. Could you just send it to the clerk?

11:20 a.m.

Prof. Gilles Larin

Sure.

11:20 a.m.

Liberal

Massimo Pacetti Liberal Saint-Léonard—Saint-Michel, QC

Thank you.

I'm not sure to whom I should ask the question, but this is very complex. I think what we're looking for are some solutions, some answers.

Mr. Brown, you alluded, towards the end of your testimony, to what some of the solutions are, but they're somewhat contradictory. In one sentence you say that we should try to avoid agreements or tax treaties, or try to look at agreements with certain countries with whom we have a problem with tax evasion or tax avoidance, because there's a fine line there. But in the meantime you suggest we should be looking at reducing corporate taxes. But if we reduce corporate taxes, if that's the solution, then do we need to continue to have agreements with tax haven countries or low-taxed countries? Are those two separate thoughts? Or by reducing corporate taxes, is that enough, first of all?

Second, is there a problem with individuals making investments outside of Canada in foreign countries, or is that just a corporate phenomenon when we talk about investment offshore?

Mr. Brown.

11:20 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Brian Pallister

That's for you.

11:20 a.m.

As an Individual

Dr. Robert Brown

Thank you.

First of all, the desire to have a better corporate tax system in Canada, including lower rates, is an important structural point in the total tax policy of this country. It's the way we get a vibrant economy. It's the way we get foreign investment. Our investment in machinery and equipment and capital goods in Canada is substantially lower per worker than it is in the United States. We can't keep on with this and stay in the game.

But as for the issue with respect to tax treaties with tax havens or whatever, yes, we should have those agreements, provided that they're meaningful. Now, if you're dealing with a pure tax haven, a little islet in the Caribbean, the problem is that even if you make an agreement that they're going to exchange information, they don't have the mechanism themselves to get any decent information and therefore you're not going to be much further ahead. When you're dealing with countries like the Netherlands, Switzerland, and Barbados, etc., you're dealing with countries with well-established tax systems, and exchanging information and reconciling objectives can be achieved.

11:25 a.m.

Liberal

Massimo Pacetti Liberal Saint-Léonard—Saint-Michel, QC

Thank you.

Do you agree with that, Mr. Larin?

11:25 a.m.

Gilles Larin

Yes, I agree.

11:25 a.m.

Liberal

Massimo Pacetti Liberal Saint-Léonard—Saint-Michel, QC

Okay.

Mr. Brown, in terms of what's being used, because the fact--

11:25 a.m.

Prof. Gilles Larin

I think you were just asking me if I was still on the line. Yes, I am on the line. Do you have a specific question for me?

11:25 a.m.

Liberal

Massimo Pacetti Liberal Saint-Léonard—Saint-Michel, QC

I just wanted to see if you were in agreement with Mr. Brown.

I just want to ask another question--

11:25 a.m.

Prof. Gilles Larin

Okay. I'm in total agreement with Mr. Brown on this issue.