Evidence of meeting #3 for Finance in the 40th Parliament, 2nd Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was inflation.

A recording is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Mark Carney  Governor, Bank of Canada
Paul Jenkins  Senior Deputy Governor, Bank of Canada

9 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative James Rajotte

I call this meeting to order.

This is the third meeting of the Standing Committee on Finance. We have, pursuant to Standing Order 108(2), a briefing on the economic situation in Canada. We have two witnesses here this morning: the Governor of the Bank of Canada, Mr. Mark Carney; and the senior deputy governor, Mr. Paul Jenkins.

There's obviously a lot of interest in Mr. Carney's statement here, and I should point out that members have been given the Monetary Policy Report Update dated January 2009. I know committee members are very much looking forward to your opening comments, and then we will have questions from members of the committee.

So welcome to the committee, Mr. Carney. You may begin at any time.

9 a.m.

Mark Carney Governor, Bank of Canada

Thank you very much, Chair, and thank you to the members for this invitation.

Good morning everyone. Paul and I are pleased to appear before this committee to discuss the Bank of Canada's perspective on the current state of the domestic and global economies.

Let me state at the outset that the speed and synchronized nature of the recent global downturn has resulted in a heightened degree of uncertainty, which is evident in the diverse views on the outlook. Indeed, it is safe to say that the degree of uncertainty—the range of possible outcomes—is greater than the range of point forecasts. It is in this environment that considerable policy actions are being taken globally: the provision of liquidity to stabilize global financial markets, the write-down of assets and the recapitalization of institutions, and macroeconomic policy measures to boost aggregate demand. A considered and coherent perspective on the likely success of these policies importantly shapes our view of the outlook for the global and Canadian economies.

The outlook for the global economy has deteriorated significantly in recent months. What began last autumn as a relatively controlled slowdown has become a sudden, synchronized, and deep global recession. The proximate cause was the intensification of the global financial crisis, owing to both the failures of several prominent global financial institutions and the growing realization that this was a solvency rather than a liquidity crisis.

The recession that originated in the United States is now spreading globally through confidence, financial, and trade channels. In the process, the inevitable correction of unsustainably large current account imbalances in several major economies is now under way. For example, we project that the U.S. current account deficit will narrow to 3% of GDP in 2009, about half of its size two years ago.

The sustainable rebalancing of global demand from deficit countries such as the U.S. and the U.K. towards surplus countries such as China and Germany will take some time and is likely to dampen the pace of global growth during that period. In the bank's January Monetary Policy Report Update, we projected that global economic growth will be tepid this year, at just 1.1%, before rebounding mildly to a below-trend rate of 3.7% in 2010. As part of that projection, we expect that the eventual U.S. recovery will be much slower than usual. For example, we project that it will take two and a half years from the onset of the recession for the U.S. GDP to return to its pre-recession level. This sluggishness reflects the lingering effects of the financial crisis on the U.S. financial system and the slow recovery of domestic consumption there owing to the magnitude of wealth effects and the deterioration of their labour market.

Reflecting the seriousness of the shock, the global macro-economic policy response has been unprecedented. Monetary policy rates have been substantially and rapidly reduced in most major economies. Fiscal policy initiatives have also been robust, with the world well on its way to spending an average of more than 2% of global GDP in discretionary fiscal measures. These measures will replace some of the lost private demand and, equally important, will create a window for the necessary rebalancing of global growth.

Simultaneous fiscal action is not only more powerful than measures taken in isolation but also has the potential to provide some support for commodity prices. However, given the typical lags, the effects of these monetary and fiscal policies will increasingly be felt over the course of this year and into 2010.

The global downturn and the declining demand for our exports will make this a very difficult year for Canada's economy. We are now in recession, with GDP projected to fall by 1.2% this year. The first half of the year will be particularly challenging, with sharp falls in activity and sharp increases in unemployment. Unfortunately, last Friday's employment report is broadly consistent with our outlook. The 14% drop in our terms of trade since July will translate into a significant reduction in Canadian incomes, and thus in our ability to sustain real domestic spending. Losses by Canadians in their financial holdings, either directly or via their pension plans, and their concerns about the employment outlook will also restrain domestic consumption this year. Uncertainty about the economic outlook and strained financial conditions should lead to declines in investment spending this year.

As some of you may have noticed, in our base case projection, real GDP is expected to rebound in 2010, growing by 3.8%. Though seemingly impressive when viewed from the depths of a recession, such a recovery is actually more muted than usual. This recovery should be supported by several factors: the timeliness and scale of our monetary policy response; our relatively well-functioning financial system and the gradual improvements in financial conditions in Canada next year; the past depreciation of the Canadian dollar; stimulative fiscal policy measures in Canada; the rebound in external demand in 2010, particularly in emerging markets, and the associated firming of commodity prices; the strengths of Canadian household, business, and bank balance sheets; and the end of the stock adjustments in residential housing.

A wider output gap and modest decreases in housing prices should cause core CPI inflation to ease through 2009, bottoming out at 1.1% in the fourth quarter of this year. Total CPI inflation is expected to dip below zero for two quarters this year, reflecting year-on-year drops in energy prices. The bank views that the possibility of deflation in Canada is remote.

Indeed, with inflation expectations well anchored, total and core inflation should return to 2% in the first half of 2011 as the economy moves back to its production potential. Of course, global developments pose significant upside and downside risks to the inflation projection, and the bank judges that these risks are roughly balanced.

As I noted at the outset, in the current environment the bank's projections and those of all forecasters are subject to an unusually high degree of uncertainty. As we have consistently emphasized, stabilization of the global financial system is a precondition for economic recovery globally and in Canada. To that end, throughout the world policymakers have acted aggressively and creatively. Central banks have provided unprecedented liquidity to keep the financial system functioning. Last October extraordinary steps were taken by all G7 countries to prevent systemic collapse and to promote the effective functioning of money and credit markets.

However, the task is far from complete. Decisions taken in the coming weeks in the United States and in other major economies to isolate toxic assets in order to create a core of “good” banks will be critical. In addition, G20 countries need to act in concert to improve domestic and international regulatory frameworks. In this regard, measures to improve transparency and integrity to implement a macro-prudential approach to regulation and to adequately resource the IMF are vital.

If these national and multilateral measures are not timely, bold, and well executed, Canada's economic recovery will be both attenuated and delayed. The reality is that the financial crisis and the subsequent recession originated beyond our borders and the necessary triggers for a sustainable recovery must be found there as well.

Canada has much to offer to these efforts, which is why the bank is working closely and tirelessly with our international colleagues.

At home, the Bank of Canada has acted decisively. We have eased monetary policy by 350 basis points since December 2007, including 250 basis points since the start of October 2008. In doing so, we cut rates deeper and sooner than most other major central banks. With the strains in our financial system considerably less than elsewhere, monetary conditions have eased significantly in Canada since the start of the crisis. In fact, we are entering this recession with negative real interest rates—an unprecedented situation. In time, this will have a powerful impact on economic activity and inflation.

Guided by Canada's inflation-targeting framework, we will continue to monitor carefully economic and financial developments in judging to what extent further monetary stimulus will be required to achieve the 2% target over the medium term. The bank retains considerable policy flexibility, which we will use if required.

To conclude, in challenging times such as these, people rightly look to a few constants, to institutions that they can rely upon and to certain expectations that will be met. Canadians can rely on the Bank of Canada to fulfill its mandate. They can expect inflation to be low, stable, and predictable. The relentless focus of monetary policy on inflation control is essential in this time of financial crisis and global recession and it remains the best contribution that monetary policy can make to the economic and financial welfare of Canada.

With that, Chair, Paul and I would be pleased to take questions.

9:10 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative James Rajotte

Thank you very much, Mr. Carney, for your opening statement.

We'll go immediately to questions from members. We'll start with Mr. McCallum for seven minutes.

9:10 a.m.

Liberal

John McCallum Liberal Markham—Unionville, ON

Thank you, Mr. Chair, and thank you to both of you for joining us this morning.

I would say, Governor, when someone of your undoubted ability, backed by the highly credible Bank of Canada, goes out on something of an optimistic limb--more so than most, but not all other economists--and tells us that growth will be very substantial next year, first of all, we hope you're right for the sake of the Canadian economy, but naturally we're curious as to your reasoning.

I'd like to ask you two questions on that point. The first is what you might call model risk. I think we all know that these value-at-risk models that banks were using based on maybe 10 years of data failed because 10 years wasn't enough to capture the volatility of recent times. I'm wondering if economic models in general and yours in particular might be subject to the same problem in that if they're based on 20 years of data and the last 20 years have been generally good times, naturally these models assume that when the economy goes down it automatically snaps back nicely, which has been the experience of the last 20 years. But my question is whether the extreme nature of the recent circumstances would lend one to have less faith in such models now than in the past.

My second question is under the general rubric of getting money out the door. We, at least on this side of the table, have considerable concern that, for example, the infrastructure money will not get out the door and that this will therefore provide less of a stimulus than one would think.

And to you in particular, I'd ask about the bank lending, the BDC-EDC in the budget. There is $8 billion, I believe, half a percent of GDP committed to lending by these institutions. If that lending doesn't occur this year when the economy is weak and it sits under a mattress in Ottawa, it doesn't do us any good. So my question is, what would be reasonable? Should we expect this $8 billion, for example, to be fully lent out within 12 months, or what would be a reasonable timeframe for it to be useful in promoting economic recovery?

9:15 a.m.

Governor, Bank of Canada

Mark Carney

I'll try to answer those certainly appropriate questions quickly, in the interest of time.

First, I think it's a very good point on model risk, and let me give more background to our forecast.

I'm going to take issue with one characterization here; we don't do optimism, we don't do pessimism. We do realism at the Bank of Canada. We don't do spin. When we do a forecast, it's not based on one model. It's actually based on 21 models, four of which are the most sophisticated models in the country. But it's not based just on models. There's a heavy overlay of judgment that comes from hundreds of industry visits and from the most sophisticated business outlook surveys and loan officer surveys and other work that I think you're familiar with. Then, as I say, there's judgment that needs to be applied, particularly in a situation like this, because at the moment we are in a situation, for the fourth quarter, from basically post the intensification of the crisis into the middle of this year, when the models are going to give you the wrong result. You have to apply judgment, because markets are not fully clear, and you have big confidence effects and you have big financial effects taking place.

So we've applied that judgment. And if you look at our outlook, immediately, particularly if you look at our outlook for the first quarter, it is more negative than most people's. We have a 4.8% annualized decline in GDP in this country. So we're bringing that judgment in. What we expect, though, in part because of the measures we've taken and in part because of the measures we expect, including measures that will be announced within the next two hours by the U.S. Treasury and other governments, is that we will start to get some stabilization in the global system. There will start to be a slow recovery in financial conditions and in confidence, and then you will go back to an element of markets clearing and models reasserting. But we still overlay a judgment, which reduces the speed of the recovery, particularly in 2010. The models will tell you that the recovery in 2010 is going to be much sharper than we're projecting. So there is a judgment overlay. I also want to reassure the members of the committee that we are not slavishly following one model; we're using multiple models, and there's a heavy, heavy overlay of judgment, which is an informed opinion.

The last point on it is that there's a big range of uncertainty around those results as well. We have to acknowledge it. And it's our collective responsibility to take steps to reduce that uncertainty. This brings me to the second question, which relates to getting money out the door. I'll make two comments on that, one of which is a macro comment, as a whole, on fiscal measures and on what our assumptions are in terms of when fiscal policy hits, both in the U.S. and in Canada. We see, in both the U.S. and Canada, a much larger fiscal impact in 2010 than in 2009. Now, that's our assumption. People can dispute it and have different views. Ultimately we see the multipliers as much stronger in 2010, which gives us stronger U.S. growth, basically downsided for 2009, and similarly, in Canada, about a 0.9 % boost to Canadian growth in 2010.

On the specific financial measures for BDC and EDC, I would say two things. Obviously this is best answered by the chairs of those institutions. But particularly with respect to EDC, one of the real challenges right now, as I'm sure you know, is trade finance and export credits and the ability to get export credit insurance for small and medium-sized businesses, and even large businesses, for exports. So there is a real market opportunity that is immediately there for them to step into.

On the BDC money, one aspect they're running is this asset-backed securities purchase program. There is a pool of securities out there, and the ability to affect that over the course of the next twelve months, I think, as you said, on the outside looking in, one would expect to be relatively high. But again, the point will be best directed to them. The bank will offer all its support for those measures, if we can be helpful, to make them as effective as possible, particularly on the asset-backed purchase program.

9:15 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative James Rajotte

Thank you. Mr. McCallum.

We'll go to Monsieur Laforest.

9:15 a.m.

Bloc

Jean-Yves Laforest Bloc Saint-Maurice—Champlain, QC

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Good morning, Mr. Carney and Mr. Jenkins.

Mr. Carney, you said earlier, at the start of your opening statement, that we could expect economic growth in 2010, eventually reaching 3.8%. Today, in February 2009, we are forecasting a recovery in 2010, in one year's time. At this time last year, could you have predicted the crisis we are currently in? Had you forecast it?

9:20 a.m.

Governor, Bank of Canada

Mark Carney

Could you repeat the last part of your question, sir?

9:20 a.m.

Bloc

Jean-Yves Laforest Bloc Saint-Maurice—Champlain, QC

You are forecasting an end to the economic crisis next year and a rebounding of approximately 3.8%. That being the case, at the same time last year, in February 2008, could you have predicted that today, in February 2009, we would be experiencing such a recession?

9:20 a.m.

Governor, Bank of Canada

9:20 a.m.

Bloc

Jean-Yves Laforest Bloc Saint-Maurice—Champlain, QC

Had you predicted it?

9:20 a.m.

Governor, Bank of Canada

Mark Carney

I now understand your question. You are asking whether we had predicted the severity of the crisis.

9:20 a.m.

Bloc

Jean-Yves Laforest Bloc Saint-Maurice—Champlain, QC

Did you have any indications?

9:20 a.m.

Governor, Bank of Canada

Mark Carney

The current global recession is clearly being felt in Canada, but it is the result of the deepening financial crisis. In a sense, you're asking whether it was possible to predict with any certainty the deepening of the financial crisis. My answer is no because the crisis was caused by difficulties in the financial sector, but also by the way the crisis has been managed.

9:20 a.m.

Bloc

Jean-Yves Laforest Bloc Saint-Maurice—Champlain, QC

That leads me to my second question. What is the single most important factor that led to the current economic crisis? You talked about the financial crisis, and how its increasing severity has led us to today's situation. By financial crisis, are you referring to commercial paper?

9:20 a.m.

Governor, Bank of Canada

Mark Carney

The financial crisis is much deeper and extends beyond the issue of ABCPs, for example, in Canada. This is a very difficult situation, causing serious problems. The global financial crisis raises a number of issues, including the creditworthiness of the major banks at the heart of the financial system. That is the problem. This morning, the U.S. Treasury Secretary will present a detailed plan, I believe, to address the situation in the United States. Other countries—excluding Canada—have to come up with their own plans to tackle the problem affecting the international financial system.

9:20 a.m.

Bloc

Jean-Yves Laforest Bloc Saint-Maurice—Champlain, QC

Is that to say that we are completely dependent on what is happening elsewhere?

9:20 a.m.

Governor, Bank of Canada

Mark Carney

No, not completely. Canada is dependent on other countries. The end of the crisis will have an impact on our growth rate; our growth projections depend on that factor. But even without an end to the crisis, Canada's domestic demand will be maintained, and our financial system will continue to operate. If the global crisis continues, then that will undoubtedly affect us.

9:20 a.m.

Bloc

Jean-Yves Laforest Bloc Saint-Maurice—Champlain, QC

Basically, you are saying that the more trade we conduct with, in particular, the United States, the more we are affected by their crisis. There is a direct link between the significance of our trade relations with the United States...

9:20 a.m.

Governor, Bank of Canada

Mark Carney

Yes, absolutely.

9:20 a.m.

Bloc

Jean-Yves Laforest Bloc Saint-Maurice—Champlain, QC

Are there countries, economies, that are currently steering clear of the recession?

9:25 a.m.

Governor, Bank of Canada

Mark Carney

That depends on your definition of the term “recession”. This year, for example, the growth rate in India will be approximately 5 to 6%, whereas the demographic growth rate will be about 2.5%. That is much less than in the past, but it does not constitute a true recession.

9:25 a.m.

Bloc

Jean-Yves Laforest Bloc Saint-Maurice—Champlain, QC

I am asking you the question...

9:25 a.m.

Governor, Bank of Canada

Mark Carney

However, theirs is a rather closed economy. That is a major difference between India and Canada.

9:25 a.m.

Bloc

Jean-Yves Laforest Bloc Saint-Maurice—Champlain, QC

I am asking the question to find out whether measures were taken in other countries. You speak of India, but are there others? Measures were taken so that those countries are protected, in a certain sense. Could we not have adopted some similar measures?