Evidence of meeting #37 for Finance in the 40th Parliament, 3rd Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was federal.

A recording is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Chris Ferns  President, Association of Nova Scotia University Teachers
Laurent Viau  President, Conseil national des cycles supérieurs (Québec)
Céline Bak  Partner, Russell Mitchell Group, Canadian Clean Technology Coalition
Curtis Cartmill  Chief Information Officer, LED Roadway Lighting, Canadian Clean Technology Coalition
Eric Dubeau  Co-chair, Canadian Arts Coalition
Shelley Clayton  President, Canadian Association of Student Financial Aid Administrators
James L. Turk  Executive Director, Canadian Association of University Teachers
Ron Bonnett  President, Canadian Federation of Agriculture
Louis-Philippe Savoie  President, Fédération étudiante universitaire du Québec
David Robinson  Associate Executive Director, Canadian Association of University Teachers
Ian Russell  President and Chief Executive Officer, Investment Industry Association of Canada
Debbie Pearl-Weinberg  General Tax Counsel, Canadian Imperial Bank of Commerce, Investment Funds Institute of Canada
Anne-Marie Jean  Executive Director, Culture Montréal
Thomas Hayes  President and Chief Executive Officer, GrowthWorks Atlantic Ltd., GrowthWorks Capital Ltd.
Andrew McArthur  Consultant, Chairman of the Shipbuilding Association of Canada, and Vice-Chairman (Retired), Irving Shipbuilding Inc.
Peter Cairns  President of the Shipbuilding Association of Canada, Irving Shipbuilding Inc.
Colin Ewart  Vice-President, Strategic Relations and Development, Rick Hansen Institute
Marie Trudeau  Director, Board of Directors, Rick Hansen Institute
Barbara Amsden  Director, Strategy and Research, Investment Funds Institute of Canada
Christian Blouin  Director, Public Health Policy and Government Relations, Merck Frosst Canada Inc.
Gary Corbett  President, Professional Institute of the Public Service of Canada
David Campbell  Government Relations Representative, Canadian Retail Building Supply Council
Scott Marks  Assistant to the General President for Canadian Operations, International Association of Fire Fighters
Normand Lafrenière  President, Canadian Association of Mutual Insurance Companies
Corinne Pohlmann  Vice-President, National Affairs, Canadian Federation of Independent Business
Dan Kelly  Senior Vice-President, Legislative Affairs, Canadian Federation of Independent Business
Chris Roberts  Research Officer, Professional Institute of the Public Service of Canada

12:25 p.m.

Corinne Pohlmann Vice-President, National Affairs, Canadian Federation of Independent Business

Thank you for the opportunity to be here today.

With me is Dan Kelly. He will be assisting with answering questions.

CFIB is a not-for-profit, non-partisan organization representing 107,000 small and medium-sized businesses across Canada. They collectively employ more than one and a quarter million Canadians and produce about $75 billion in GDP. Our members represent all sectors of the economy and they're found in every region of the country.

Almost all businesses in Canada, about 98%, are small or medium-sized, and they employ about 64% of Canadians and produce almost half of Canada's GDP. They hold on to their employees, shedding far fewer jobs during the last two years than their larger counterparts, and they tend to be, typically, the first to create jobs during tougher times, helping to drive economic growth.

You should have a slide deck presentation in front of you that I want to walk you through over the next few minutes.

The past two years have not been easy, and many small firms continue to struggle. On slide 2 is CFIB's latest business barometer, and it clearly shows that optimism was at its lowest in early 2009 but steadily improved after that. However, this growing optimism has stalled more recently, as business expectations have been gradually decreasing since May, suggesting that the economy is moving into low gear. Unfortunately, this also seems to be translating into fewer new jobs, as more firms plan to decrease employment in the next few months than those who plan to increase it, as shown on the next slide. This suggests that many smaller firms are remaining cautious as they wait to see what happens in the global and local economies.

So how do you best address issues facing small firms and help foster their growth? Slide 4 shows the issues of highest priority for small firms in Canada between January and June 2010. Taxes, regulations, and government debt and deficits top the list, so our pre-budget recommendations are based on these priorities.

First, taxes. As you can see on slide 5, most small businesses want governments to stick to their current tax plans or cut taxes further. What is very clear here, though, is that governments should avoid increasing any taxes.

As you can see on slide 6, payroll taxes are the most important to address, as they have the biggest negative impact on job creation. Some progress has been made with the recent announcement of limiting the 2011 EI rate increase to 5¢. While we would have preferred to see this as a complete freeze, it is far preferable to what was originally planned. Now the key is not to add new costs to the EI system and to eliminate those EI programs that do not yield positive results.

We're also very concerned about threats to increase CPP and QPP, which is an even more significant payroll tax for employers, so we're opposed to seeing any increases at this time.

While we would love to see other significant tax cuts, we understand that the current economic situation may make this more difficult, so we recommend a number of smaller measures aimed at fostering job creation, savings, and investment. Those recommendations are listed on slide 7, and they include an EI hiring and training credit, similar to the Liberal's new hires plan in the late 1990s, which would provide employers with an EI holiday for any increase in payroll for a set period of time to encourage job creation; rather than increase CPP or QPP, government should treat RRSPs more like RPPs when it comes to payroll tax exemptions and income splitting; to encourage capital investment, we suggest a capital cost allowance measure that allows small businesses to expense the first $75,000 in annual business capital costs; and we believe tax treatment between publicly traded and private companies for share donations to charities must be equalized.

These are just some of the ideas that we have listed here, and we'd be glad to discuss others that we believe will not cost that much but will be of great benefit to smaller companies.

The next highest priority concerns government regulations and paper burden, which costs Canadian businesses more than $30 billion a year to comply. As you can see on slide 8, the cost of complying is more than five times higher for firms with fewer than five employees than it is for those with more than 100 employees.

So what can be done? As outlined on the next slide, we recommend that the Red Tape Reduction Commission announced in the last budget focus on making regulatory reform permanent by appointing a minister responsible and tabling legislation that commits to paper burden reduction targets and that places constraints on regulators, conducting ongoing measurement and publicly reporting progress on all this activity.

We'd also like to see follow-through on another previous budget promise to strengthen taxpayer fairness at CRA. We believe this can be done by following British Columbia's example, which allows taxpayers to get written responses to their questions and have those written responses honoured by CRA, even if they are incorrect.

Finally, small businesses are very worried about growing government deficits and debt. This is the fastest growing issue among our membership, because they know that if this is not brought under control, it will result in higher taxes down the road.

First, as you can see on slide 10, the largest group wants the government to eliminate the deficit in the medium term, preferably by 2015.

Next, they'd like to see government cut back spending, just as many of them have done over the last two years. As you can see on slide 11, 82% believe there should be spending cuts in government administration, including employee wages and benefits. In fact, we found that federal public sector employees, on average, earn 17% more than those in equivalent occupations in the private sector, and when benefits are added, this premium jumps up to more than 40%.

We're also alarmed by the ballooning unfunded liability in the federal public sector pension plan, which we understand is around $150 billion. As it is unclear how this will be addressed, we fear it will result in higher costs on those who cannot access such generous pensions down the road.

As you can see on slide 12, the CFIB recommends governments start addressing government administration costs by limiting public sector wage increases; requiring public sector pension plans to undergo the same disclosure and transparency requirements as private plans; increasing federal employee pension contributions to 50-50, as is the case in most provinces; and eliminating early retirement inducements.

We also believe you can look at cutting spending in some other areas, such as economic development agencies, as those are some of the areas from which our members don't necessarily believe they get a lot of benefit.

Small businesses are the backbone of Canada's economy and the heartbeat of our communities, so we believe the government's role is to foster their spirit and create the conditions that allow small businesses to grow into medium-sized and larger companies.

Thanks very much.

12:30 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative James Rajotte

Thank you very much.

We'll start members' questions with Mr. Szabo.

12:30 p.m.

Liberal

Paul Szabo Liberal Mississauga South, ON

Thank you.

I'd like to engage the Professional Institute of the Public Service of Canada, particularly in relation to outsourcing.

The Auditor General has often reported about personnel issues, human resources issues, around departments finding it a lot easier and more efficient to get a human body to a desk by contracting people rather than by waiting for the process to go through. It's almost like an efficiency thing. I'm wondering if the point that's being made, or that you're suggesting, is that it's being driven by factors of convenience as opposed to economics.

October 21st, 2010 / 12:30 p.m.

President, Professional Institute of the Public Service of Canada

Gary Corbett

Yes. We're of the view that it is being driven by factors of convenience. The staffing process does take a long time. However, although it's convenient, it still costs more money in the long run, so even if it's convenience, it's the processes that we have to look at and change. We have to make sure it's the best bang for the buck for Canadians.

12:30 p.m.

Liberal

Paul Szabo Liberal Mississauga South, ON

Has the Auditor General opined on growing levels of outsourcing?

12:35 p.m.

President, Professional Institute of the Public Service of Canada

Gary Corbett

Yes, I believe the Auditor General has talked about it. I think it was mentioned in the Public Service Commission report.

12:35 p.m.

Liberal

Paul Szabo Liberal Mississauga South, ON

Okay, and the government issued a response. What was the response?

12:35 p.m.

President, Professional Institute of the Public Service of Canada

Gary Corbett

I'm not exactly sure what the response was, to be honest.

12:35 p.m.

Liberal

Paul Szabo Liberal Mississauga South, ON

Okay. Maybe we'll find out.

This question is for the CFIB. I'm always interested in them. CFIB works really hard to keep members informed of things, and you have, unlike many other presenters that we've had from time to time, provided some data. You put it on a table and it's there.

One of the last things you said under the recommendations had to do with introducing a taxpayer fairness code similar to B.C.'s. I have to tell you.... Is it a misprint? It says here, “allow taxpayers to get responses in writing upon request”. This is from the CRA, the Canada Revenue Agency. The next point is that the CRA must honour those written responses, even if incorrect. You put that under the title of a fairness code; I'm wondering whether fairness wouldn't be better served by making sure that we deal with correct information.

12:35 p.m.

Vice-President, National Affairs, Canadian Federation of Independent Business

Corinne Pohlmann

That would be the ideal situation, but, unfortunately, at this point in time the inconsistency of responses that our members get from CRA leads them to feel nervous just calling and getting responses. The idea is that if they're doing their due diligence and they do something under the guidance of something CRA has told them and are then told later that it was the incorrect process or the incorrect way of doing it, they should not be penalized.

We want to set up a system by which taxpayers can ask for a response in writing, which is what British Columbia did. I can ask what I should do or how I should interpret something, and if I apply that and later on in an audit it's found to be incorrect, I'm not going to be penalized for it. That's really the basis behind that.

12:35 p.m.

Liberal

Paul Szabo Liberal Mississauga South, ON

That's helpful to know, because the bald statement doesn't hold together very well.

12:35 p.m.

Vice-President, National Affairs, Canadian Federation of Independent Business

Corinne Pohlmann

Fair enough.

12:35 p.m.

Liberal

Paul Szabo Liberal Mississauga South, ON

You also have a chart here with regard to business opinion about the timeframe for the government to balance its budget--and boy, it's tomorrow. It should, but it can't.

One of the questions that has come up--and I'd be interested in whether the CFIB has a an opinion on it--is whether we should grow out of this problem by targeting available federal dollars into growth stimulus, at the risk of maybe curtailing social spending somewhat--if I could put it that way--until we get out of this mess. Where is that balance for you?

12:35 p.m.

Dan Kelly Senior Vice-President, Legislative Affairs, Canadian Federation of Independent Business

I'm Dan Kelly from CFIB.

I think our members have actually taken a fairly reasonable approach to getting us out of deficit insofar as I don't think there's an expectation that it's going to happen overnight. When we did some earlier surveying of our members in terms of the timeframe by which governments should come out of deficit, the timeframe the government put in place was viewed as being reasonable to our members as to the schedule by which we get out of that.

There are big questions on our members' minds, though, as to whether or not stimulus spending is necessarily particularly helpful. There were certain aspects of the package that I think our members did find helpful. Certainly the home renovation tax credit was viewed by many small businesses as a very helpful measure. The EI rate freeze was viewed as being quite helpful to our members as well. But I wouldn't say there's a huge appetite on our members' minds to increase or launch new stimulus spending programs at this moment as we come out of the recession.

In fact, our members are fairly hawkish right now. They're looking at what's happening in England. They're kind of wishing that the government were taking a more aggressive tack in cutting spending to get us out of the mess that we're in.

12:35 p.m.

Liberal

Paul Szabo Liberal Mississauga South, ON

Very quickly, this is to the International Association of Firefighters.

I was involved with the PSOP when I became a member. We also had the CPP benefits earlier because of a motion I put through. So I am very sympathetic to the fact that fire fighters have a lower life expectancy naturally in their professions than in other professions. That's why they can get their Canada pension earlier.

A public safety officer, as defined, does not include paramedics, but you know they're first responders as well and may be at risk. Do you feel that the paramedics should be incorporated into the benefit program of PSOP?

12:40 p.m.

Assistant to the General President for Canadian Operations, International Association of Fire Fighters

Scott Marks

We certainly wouldn't be opposed to it being looked at. Whether or not the paramedics truly belong in the public safety officer envelope is something that should be addressed, and I'm sure paramedics are bringing that forward. We are not opposed to it, no.

12:40 p.m.

Liberal

Paul Szabo Liberal Mississauga South, ON

Thank you.

12:40 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative James Rajotte

Thank you, Mr. Szabo.

Monsieur Carrier, s'il vous plaît.

You have seven minutes.

12:40 p.m.

Bloc

Robert Carrier Bloc Alfred-Pellan, QC

My question is for Mr. Blouin, from Merck Frosst Canada.

I listened carefully to your presentation, and I have looked at your document. You are making us aware of the importance of vaccination; I think that is a good thing. You mentioned a vaccine called ZOSTAVAX, which is excluded from the NIS, despite the fact that it has received approval from the National Advisory Committee on Immunization.

12:40 p.m.

Director, Public Health Policy and Government Relations, Merck Frosst Canada Inc.

Christian Blouin

The NIS is the National Immunization Strategy.

12:40 p.m.

Bloc

Robert Carrier Bloc Alfred-Pellan, QC

It is for that strategy that you are asking for $100 million a year.

Do you understand why this vaccine has been excluded from the National Immunization Strategy?

12:40 p.m.

Director, Public Health Policy and Government Relations, Merck Frosst Canada Inc.

Christian Blouin

In fact, that is a very interesting question. I have been wondering for years why we have to fight every year to promote the importance of immunization. After all, it is well-known—it has been demonstrated not only in Canada but throughout the world—that immunization is by far the most cost-effective medical method or intervention.

In Canada, regrettable decisions are often made. In this case, the NACI, the National Advisory Committee on Immunization, has made a recommendation in favour of this vaccine. However, there is always a time lag after approval. Health Canada and the NACI have given their approval. Then the provinces take their time to implement the recommendations. A simple reason is that they are short of funding.

I believe that the federal government has a role to play. We know that health is a provincial jurisdiction. But if there is one role that the federal government can play, it is to promote immunization, and the provinces all agree on that.

Infectious diseases cannot be detected in the hospital through the use of a scanner. Viruses travel; they do not recognize borders or barriers. We saw this with SARS, the threat of the West Nile virus and the pandemic. The Canadian government therefore has an important role to play in cooperation with the provinces.

The funding was not renewed in March 2010, in the 2010-2011 budget, and we believe that it is time for it to be renewed. And there is support from almost all medical organizations, in particular the coalition on immunization.

12:40 p.m.

Bloc

Robert Carrier Bloc Alfred-Pellan, QC

You represent a pharmaceutical company. You are talking about a vaccine that you developed. How many pharmaceutical companies are producing vaccines?

12:40 p.m.

Director, Public Health Policy and Government Relations, Merck Frosst Canada Inc.

Christian Blouin

There are about five companies producing vaccines right now. I gave the example of ZOSTAVAX, but there are other examples as well. There is a vaccine against rotavirus. It is not yet funded, but it has been approved for four years already. It has received a favourable opinion from the National Advisory Committee. Moreover, the Canadian Pediatric Society has just recommended it. But there is no public funding yet for it.

To ensure funding for these vaccines, the provinces need some financial help, in my opinion. Other companies are developing vaccines, and a number of those will soon be ready. In Canada, we need to put a lot more emphasis on prevention. It is not an expense but rather an investment. It prevents hospitalization costs, saves lives and prevents the entire health care system from being overburdened.

12:40 p.m.

Bloc

Robert Carrier Bloc Alfred-Pellan, QC

We talk about competition in a free enterprise context. What does this mean in the case of pharmaceutical companies? Does each company develop its own vaccine and try to have it approved?