Evidence of meeting #118 for Finance in the 41st Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was measures.

A recording is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Sonia L'Heureux  Interim Parliamentary Budget Officer, Library of Parliament
Mostafa Askari  Assistant Parliamentary Budget Officer, Economic and Fiscal Analysis, Office of the Parliamentary Budget Officer, Library of Parliament
Chris Matier  Senior Director, Economic and Fiscal Analysis and Forecasting, Office of the Parliamentary Budget Officer, Library of Parliament
Sahir Khan  Assistant Parliamentary Budget Officer, Expenditure and Revenue Analysis, Office of the Parliamentary Budget Officer, Library of Parliament

11:05 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative James Rajotte

I call the meeting to order.

This is meeting 118 of the Standing Committee on Finance. Our orders of the day, pursuant to Standing Order 108(2), are for a study of the economic and fiscal outlook.

We are very pleased to be joined here this morning by four officials from the Parliamentary Budget Office.

First, we have the Interim Parliamentary Budget Officer, Madam Sonia L'Heureux.

Welcome to our committee for the first time.

We have Mr. Mostafa Askari and Mr. Sahir Khan, both assistant parliamentary budget officers, and Monsieur Chris Matier, senior director, economic and fiscal analysis and forecasting.

Welcome, all of you, to the committee.

Madam L'Heureux, I understand you have an opening statement to present to the committee. Then we'll have questions from members.

11:05 a.m.

Sonia L'Heureux Interim Parliamentary Budget Officer, Library of Parliament

Thank you.

Mr. Chair and committee members, I am here in my capacity as Parliamentary Budget Officer on an interim basis. Your interest in the work of the PBO is important to us, and we are pleased to appear before you today to discuss our report on the economic and fiscal outlook, which was recently published.

As you mentioned, joining me today are PBO officials Mostafa Askari, Sahir Khan and Chris Matier. I would like to begin with a brief opening statement, and then we would be pleased to respond to your questions.

As you may recall, our report was prepared in response to this committee's September 2011 motion that, consistent with my mandate, the PBO provide an economic and fiscal outlook to the committee twice a year, in April and October.

Since our previous report in October 2012, the outlook for global growth in 2013 has been revised down, from 3.6% to 3.3%, based on International Monetary Fund projections. The IMF currently expects global growth to improve to 4% in 2014, but cautions that the road to recovery in advanced economies will remain bumpy.

PBO's outlook for the U.S. economy is broadly in line with its October projection, which showed a gradual but steady improvement over the medium term. PBO's outlook for commodity prices is little changed from October, and consistent with futures prices over the near term, shows moderate increases going forward.

PBO's current outlook for the Canadian economy also reflects the impact of the government's 2013 economic action plan. Measures in the action plan were targeted at supporting jobs and growth and at returning the budget to balance. In addition, the action plan included downward revisions to direct program expense levels.

All told, over the period 2013-14 to 2017-18, the measures and revisions in the 2013 action plan should result in projected savings of $10.8 billion. Our report also provides estimates of the impacts of these changes on real GDP and employment based on Finance Canada's multipliers.

Combined with the sluggish recovery in the global economy, government spending restraint will act as an additional drag on growth and job creation in Canada. PBO projects Canadian real GDP growth to slow to 1.5% in 2013, and to remain below its potential growth rate until 2015. With the economy continuing to operate well below its potential, the unemployment rate is projected to remain relatively stable at around 7.4% over the next two years.

As the recovery takes hold, PBO projects real GDP growth to average 2.6% over the period 2015 to 2017. The unemployment rate is projected to decline gradually, averaging 6.3% in 2017.

Despite the sluggish economic recovery, given projected increases in employment insurance premium rates, and assuming that the government achieves its planned spending levels and savings from revenue increases, the PBO projects that the budgetary balance will improve from a deficit of $25 billion—or 1.4% of GDP—in 2012-13 to a surplus of $8.5 billion—or 0.4% of GDP—in 2016-17.

Assuming that the government does not increase its spending above planned levels and achieves its savings from revenue increases, the PBO estimates that given the economic uncertainty surrounding the outlook, the likelihood of realizing a budgetary balance is approximately 60% in 2015-16, 70% in 2016-17 and 65% in 2017-18.

PBO's projected improvement in the budgetary balance over the medium term is largely the result of a structural improvement in the government's financial position. PBO projects that the government's structural deficit will be eliminated by 2014-15, giving rise to structural surpluses of $8.4 billion, on average, over 2015-16 to 2017-18.

Estimates and projections of structural balances provide useful information about a government's underlying financial position and can be used to help guide policy actions. As such, our report also provides a comparison of PBO and Finance Canada estimates. Finance Canada's structural balance is estimated by PBO to be $3.6 billion higher, on average, than PBO's structural balance.

As most of you know, I was appointed to the PBO role only a few weeks ago on an interim basis. I must confess that my comfort level with the subject matter is still a work in progress. Nevertheless, I am joined today by officials from the PBO team with in-depth expertise in these matters, and they will assist me in responding to your questions or anything you may have on the economic and fiscal outlook.

Thank you.

11:05 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative James Rajotte

Thank you kindly for your presentation.

We will now proceed with members' questions.

Ms. Nash, please go ahead.

11:05 a.m.

NDP

Peggy Nash NDP Parkdale—High Park, ON

Bienvenue. Welcome to your first visit to the finance committee as interim PBO.

I would like to ask you some questions about the 2013 economic and fiscal outlook, just to review some of the salient points in the outlook.

In the report, you reference cuts to direct program spending. In budget 2013, by how much is direct program spending going to be cut?

11:10 a.m.

Mostafa Askari Assistant Parliamentary Budget Officer, Economic and Fiscal Analysis, Office of the Parliamentary Budget Officer, Library of Parliament

There was a total of a $9.1 billion reduction in direct program spending over the five-year period. That consists of many different things, but $9.1 billion is the total.

11:10 a.m.

NDP

Peggy Nash NDP Parkdale—High Park, ON

Okay, so it's a $9.1 billion cut.

How many jobs will be eliminated as a result of budget 2013?

11:10 a.m.

Assistant Parliamentary Budget Officer, Economic and Fiscal Analysis, Office of the Parliamentary Budget Officer, Library of Parliament

Mostafa Askari

What we have done in annex D of our report is we have shown all the measures that have been taken in 2013, plus the measures that were taken in budget 2012, and we have measured the impact of all those over the five years.

The impact on jobs for budget 2013, by year 2016, is about 14,000. What that means essentially is that whether jobs will be created, it will be essentially lower by 14,000 relative to what we are projecting right now.

11:10 a.m.

NDP

Peggy Nash NDP Parkdale—High Park, ON

Lower than 15,000.

11:10 a.m.

Assistant Parliamentary Budget Officer, Economic and Fiscal Analysis, Office of the Parliamentary Budget Officer, Library of Parliament

Mostafa Askari

Fifteen thousand. So we are actually projecting an increase in jobs over the forecast period. What that 14,000 means is that the level of jobs would be 14,000 more had the government not introduced the measures it introduced in budget 2013.

11:10 a.m.

NDP

Peggy Nash NDP Parkdale—High Park, ON

Okay, so the jobs created would be reduced by 14,000. There would have been 14,000 more jobs without these cuts.

What are you projecting in terms of the cut to real GDP growth as a result of those program cuts?

11:10 a.m.

Assistant Parliamentary Budget Officer, Economic and Fiscal Analysis, Office of the Parliamentary Budget Officer, Library of Parliament

Mostafa Askari

The impact on GDP level, not the growth, will be relatively small. It's about 0.12%, I believe.

11:10 a.m.

NDP

Peggy Nash NDP Parkdale—High Park, ON

Just to get the bigger picture, when you add in the last budget and the impact in this fiscal update, what is the total number of jobs that are being eliminated through these cuts?

11:10 a.m.

Assistant Parliamentary Budget Officer, Economic and Fiscal Analysis, Office of the Parliamentary Budget Officer, Library of Parliament

Mostafa Askari

What we are estimating is a total of about 67,000 jobs. For all the measures from budget 2012 through to the update of 2012, and then budget 2013, it's a total of 67,000.

11:10 a.m.

NDP

Peggy Nash NDP Parkdale—High Park, ON

It's a total of 67,000 fewer jobs because of these cuts. That's pretty significant.

What is the projection in this report for the GDP reduction?

11:10 a.m.

Assistant Parliamentary Budget Officer, Economic and Fiscal Analysis, Office of the Parliamentary Budget Officer, Library of Parliament

Mostafa Askari

Sorry, GDP reduction relative to.... I said about 0.5% for the level of GDP.

11:10 a.m.

NDP

Peggy Nash NDP Parkdale—High Park, ON

Generally, how would you project economic growth going forward? What is your forecast for 2013-14? How would you characterize economic growth?

11:10 a.m.

Assistant Parliamentary Budget Officer, Economic and Fiscal Analysis, Office of the Parliamentary Budget Officer, Library of Parliament

Mostafa Askari

We are expecting 1.5% growth in 2013, rising to 1.9%.

Actually, for both of those two years, growth will be less than the potential growth. The output gap, that's the excess capacity, will actually increase over those two years. Beyond that, the economy will grow much faster. We are expecting about 2.6% growth over the last three years of the projection period. By 2016 we are expecting that we will actually reach the potential output level in Canada. That's the full capacity at that time.

11:10 a.m.

NDP

Peggy Nash NDP Parkdale—High Park, ON

So, for the next couple of years you would characterize the economic growth as—

11:10 a.m.

Assistant Parliamentary Budget Officer, Economic and Fiscal Analysis, Office of the Parliamentary Budget Officer, Library of Parliament

Mostafa Askari

As relatively weaker than the potential growth in the economy.

11:10 a.m.

NDP

Peggy Nash NDP Parkdale—High Park, ON

What about unemployment?

11:10 a.m.

Assistant Parliamentary Budget Officer, Economic and Fiscal Analysis, Office of the Parliamentary Budget Officer, Library of Parliament

Mostafa Askari

The unemployment rate will stay relatively stable for the next couple of years, and then gradually decline to about 6.3% by the end of the forecast.

11:10 a.m.

NDP

Peggy Nash NDP Parkdale—High Park, ON

I have one more question. High unemployment, weak growth, loss of jobs—are these cuts to program spending necessary to return to a structural budget surplus?

11:10 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative James Rajotte

Just a brief response, please.

11:10 a.m.

Assistant Parliamentary Budget Officer, Economic and Fiscal Analysis, Office of the Parliamentary Budget Officer, Library of Parliament

Mostafa Askari

We are estimating that the structural surplus by 2017 will remain on the plus side without those measures. It would be a much smaller—

11:10 a.m.

NDP

Peggy Nash NDP Parkdale—High Park, ON

The cuts were not needed.