Please keep your response brief.
Evidence of meeting #13 for Finance in the 41st Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was colleges.
Evidence of meeting #13 for Finance in the 41st Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was colleges.
9:45 a.m.
Chair of the Tax and Fiscal Policy Advisory Group, Certified General Accountants Association of Canada
Well, each year it costs about $4 billion to $5 billion to produce personal tax returns, and I would say that the cost to prepare an income tax return has risen by almost the exact amount you will save through those boutique credits. So I'm not sure what the net gain to the economy will be. We didn't cost it, but I'm certain that there is not that much of an advantage just because of the increased accounting costs.
9:45 a.m.
Conservative
The Chair Conservative James Rajotte
Okay, thank you.
Thank you, Mr. Brison.
We'll go to Ms. McLeod.
9:45 a.m.
Conservative
Cathy McLeod Conservative Kamloops—Thompson—Cariboo, BC
Thank you.
It's my privilege to join you here today.
I agree that having a group of general accountant associations look at simplifying the tax act would perhaps make things much simpler for you but would also decrease the opportunities.
Quickly, in terms of the sports credit or whatever, with electronic filing and with parents and families who have these very simple tax credits...I do my own filing, and if I had a tax credit for sports, I can't imagine that it would really involve, to the degree you're talking about.... But that's perhaps just a comment.
You did talk about technical changes. Of course, in a minority Parliament it was always very challenging to move many pieces of legislation through. Can you speak to the importance of those technical changes and going forward with them? Has there been enough consultation done in terms of moving forward with those changes that need to be made?
9:45 a.m.
Chair of the Tax and Fiscal Policy Advisory Group, Certified General Accountants Association of Canada
Well, the changes sure bring in a lot of uncertainty for the tax practitioners. I'll take subsection 56(4), for example, which is an income tax section that has been there since...and it's retroactive. If ever assented to, it will be retroactive to October 2001, so we would have to refile for 10 years in the past. There's also section 18, paragraph 2.1(c), for the deduction of interest. That has been there for the longest time.
These bring in a lot of uncertainty. How much consultation there has been within the government, I do not know, but for me, in my private practice, in giving advice to my clients and telling them that something from seven years ago could come back and haunt them, it's certainly against the spirit of the act, which says that after three years you should have a filing position that is dead and you can move on.
So passing these would certainly help, and again, I invite you afterwards just to flip through it: the grey sections in the Income Tax Act are the proposed sections. This is not a catch. I have the French and English; just flip through it and you will see how many there are. They need to move or disappear after a certain period of time. Certain countries make them disappear after three years.
9:45 a.m.
Conservative
Cathy McLeod Conservative Kamloops—Thompson—Cariboo, BC
Thank you.
My next question is for Ms. Smith-MacDonald. Certainly, as I have the opportunity to travel across this country, I see the vastness, and I perhaps look at the wisdom of our forefathers who really created provincial jurisdiction. I look at what happened over the last stimulus program, whereby significant dollars were put into supportive housing, for example.
I know that in the riding I'm in I think we doubled supportive housing for seniors, on top of increases to the GIS. Because it was done in partnership with the province and because it was done with communities, I saw many creative models coming out. I mean, people can argue about how much money is available, and that's a fair argument, but when I hear people talk about a national housing strategy, I think it is absolutely the wrong way to go constitutionally and in terms of allowing the creativity that we have seen.
Again, I appreciate that we can debate the amount of money that's focused in that area, but try to convince me that we don't have a good system, whether it's with regard to the opportunities for communities to be creative and for provinces to really look at what they need...because there's such a difference between Newfoundland and British Columbia.
9:45 a.m.
Coordinator, Every Woman's Centre
I agree with you. I certainly don't want to be in a critical role. I think that whatever programs are being offered are offered in the best spirit of where they come from.
With the housing, for example, if it's a partnership between the feds, the province, and municipalities, very often the province doesn't pick up on it, or they decide they're not going to partner because that's not their priority. The money may be available, but it may not be accessed by the province because they have other priorities.
I think that creativity in housing, such as cooperatives, non-profit associations.... A lot of communities are looking to get into the housing market. For housing that was made available to the homelessness initiative, for example, you had to be in a certain area in order to access that money. You had to be in larger areas. We have taken advantage of that in Sydney. However, there are other areas like Antigonish, Port Hawkesbury, or other smaller communities that can't take advantage of it.
9:50 a.m.
Conservative
Cathy McLeod Conservative Kamloops—Thompson—Cariboo, BC
See, again, I saw that even our smallest communities said they....
If I have time for another quick question...?
9:50 a.m.
Conservative
Cathy McLeod Conservative Kamloops—Thompson—Cariboo, BC
Mr. McMillan, yesterday at Memorial University, and also where I come from, we've seen that funding from the governments has created equipment where there have been partnerships. They're actually making revenue...so again, we have this fancy spectrometer or something at TRU, and they're putting that out to private people who can really use that. On the costs, is it really helping your bottom line when there are investments?
9:50 a.m.
President, Holland College, Atlantic Provinces Community College Consortium
It is helping us, yes, and it's all part of our applied research agenda. I think every college can speak very specifically about how we've leveraged our capital equipment and resources and have made them available to industry so that they can either test new products or enhance their use.
I think it is working well. Colleges get only about 1.9% of the money made available for research. In our submission, we're requesting that this amount be increased to 5% over the years. There's quite an imbalance.
9:50 a.m.
Conservative
The Chair Conservative James Rajotte
I'll just remind members that when the chair says “brief”, he means really brief. I think we're all stretching it a bit. We do want to give the witnesses the opportunity to answer. I apologize for cutting people off here.
We'll go to Mr. Marston, please.
9:50 a.m.
NDP
Wayne Marston NDP Hamilton East—Stoney Creek, ON
Thank you, Mr. Chair. I'm back home again. I was born in Plaster Rock, New Brunswick. I don't know whether to say this or not, but my first marriage started here in Moncton.
Ms. Smith-MacDonald, you talked about poverty. A study done recently in Hamilton by our Social Planning and Research Council said the rate of women's poverty is double that of men in our city of Hamilton, and that was amongst seniors. We just heard one of the members speak about the increase to the guaranteed income supplement. The poverty rate is $22,000 a year. OAS plus GIS is about $15,200 a year. To my mind, the impact of that $50 wasn't very great. What was your experience with that?
9:50 a.m.
Coordinator, Every Woman's Centre
It was my experience that it didn't go very far either. There needs to be a serious look at this in terms of senior women and men and what their income is. With their expenses, with other systems, with people being encouraged to stay in their own homes, with the lack of nursing home beds, and with all the health issues that are involved in that, a huge dilemma is created for seniors who are trying to maintain their own homes. There's now a moratorium on placing nursing home beds in Nova Scotia, so people are expected to stay at home. It's more expensive to stay at home. If you're at home, your drugs aren't covered, and there are all kinds of other things. There has to be a realistic look at what that means for a senior, and income has to be adjusted to cover that.
9:50 a.m.
NDP
Wayne Marston NDP Hamilton East—Stoney Creek, ON
Thank you.
Mr. Simonsen, we had witnesses in our first hearings in Ottawa, the Conference Board of Canada and others, and they talked about the level of indebtedness of Canadians, combined with the business community holding about $500 billion back because they have to protect themselves in case the banks seize up on them, as they did a couple of years ago.
According to FCM, we have an infrastructure deficit of about $130 billion. The NDP had proposed, in its election platform, the greening of Canadian homes and buildings. You mentioned the stock being in terrible shape, with 81% of it from before 1986. Our belief is it's time for the government to do some strategic investment. In fact their deficit target should be delayed at least one year to start instituting some of this movement. What are your thoughts on that?
9:50 a.m.
Chief Executive Officer, Canadian Real Estate Association
I relate it back to one of our proposals, about the reinvestment side of things. That proposal will encourage small investors—these are folks who are earning $50,000 a year—to indeed upgrade their properties, to reinvest in other properties, and to do some of the greening initiatives I think you're describing.
9:55 a.m.
NDP
Wayne Marston NDP Hamilton East—Stoney Creek, ON
Mr. McMillan, at Mohawk College in Hamilton I chaired a labour advisory board, and you were speaking about advisory boards. I also was a school board trustee, and we had 28% dropout in our schools. When we asked kids in grades 10 and 11 what their expectation was, they were going to program video games or win the lottery. They're out of touch with reality by a long shot. We have to find a way to bring them together. I'm a great believer in the community college system and the ability that organization has to give some hope to these people, but do we need a federal program of some sort to bridge the ones who have dropped out?
9:55 a.m.
President, Holland College, Atlantic Provinces Community College Consortium
I think it would be helpful. They've become part of that unrepresented group. Many of the colleges have started to put together transition programs.
Just to give a personal example quickly, our college works with the high schools on the island. They identify kids who are underperforming but have potential. They come to the college for half a semester and do a day with us. We rotate them through the various programs so they can make informed decisions about a career option. Plus they are with adults, so they model up, and they understand there are certain expectations and requirements.
I think once again if there could be an envelope or something identified to help those underrepresented groups, it would be helpful.
9:55 a.m.
NDP
Wayne Marston NDP Hamilton East—Stoney Creek, ON
Mr. St-Pierre, you talked about tax credits and how tax credits don't benefit the poor. At least that's what I read into what you were saying. This government has offered a variety of tax credits. Is there a more progressive way than doing that in which they might be able to help people?
9:55 a.m.
Chair of the Tax and Fiscal Policy Advisory Group, Certified General Accountants Association of Canada
It goes back to an expert panel; it's difficult for me to talk for the Canadian government or for the population as a whole. I think an expert panel would be the best place to look at these types of credits: how much do they cost the system, are they really working, and do they make a change...? There needs to be more study and consultation on that topic, for sure.
9:55 a.m.
NDP
Wayne Marston NDP Hamilton East—Stoney Creek, ON
Well, our contention was that they weren't working.
9:55 a.m.
Chair of the Tax and Fiscal Policy Advisory Group, Certified General Accountants Association of Canada
My contention, too, is that they are not.
9:55 a.m.
NDP
Wayne Marston NDP Hamilton East—Stoney Creek, ON
I think that was clarified in the question.
Thank you.
9:55 a.m.
Conservative
9:55 a.m.
Conservative
Mark Adler Conservative York Centre, ON
Thank you, Chair.
Thanks to all of you for coming today.
My first question is for Mr. St-Pierre. As we all know, tax is a very effective policy tool, and the lower the tax rate, the more compliance we tend to have. Would you agree that, as some have said, increasing corporate taxes would be a step in the wrong direction?