Finance Committee on Oct. 6th, 2014

[Gerald Keddy, Conservative, South Shore—St. Margaret's, NS]

Welcome to our witnesses.

To Grand Chief Picard, regarding the ongoing investment in first nations education, you're asking for an immediate release in your budget ask of the $1.9 billion for first nations education, and at the same time your organization was involved in the drafting of this. I'm not quite certain what has happened. There seems to be toing and froing over the dollars. It's budget 2014.

We have to find a way to make sure that money goes out to first nations. I don't think there is any argument on any side of the table that it happen. How do we do that and how do we make sure there is an equal level of expertise, and that all the first nations are involved in first nations education? How do we distribute those dollars in partnership? The one thing you've heard at this table was partnership, collaboration, and best practices. That's the one thing I've not heard from you, so you need to enlighten me.

[Chief Ghislain Picard]

What you're raising is exactly what we're hoping to achieve.

We're seeking an arrangement, or a framework, if you will, with the government in terms of how to best expend the moneys that are needed. Obviously, we might have as many interpretations as we have people around this table in terms of what happened over the last six months, but this doesn't change the fact that this money is needed for many reasons, including the fact that first nation citizens across the country experience demographics that no other Canadian citizen or society experiences. That's a good point right there. The point made earlier about the discrepancies between what is available to first nations communities versus what is available elsewhere is another argument that I think needs to be considered. The fact that the funding formulas have not been revised for the last 20 years is also a good point to make.

Let's discuss that. Let's find an arrangement on this. Let's look at a much broader fiscal framework where first nations leadership would find some benefits.

[Gerald Keddy, Conservative, South Shore—St. Margaret's, NS]

Thank you.

Recently a group called Indspire appeared at committee. They're doing some great work with aboriginal students. They're achieving some great high standards at post-secondary institutions, at both the community college and university levels. They've been able to leverage fairly modest—compared to what we're talking about—federal funding into more scholarships, and they've been able to work with the private sector as well.

I have two questions. I assume you're familiar with the group. Can we find that same ability—and again, I want to use the words “collaboration”, “partnerships”, and “best practices”—to access those funds and move forward?

[Chief Ghislain Picard]

I think no one will dispute what Indspire has been able to achieve across the country. At the same time—and we totally agree with the argument that they defend as well—if you're caught in a situation where you have to negotiate year after year what you plan for the next 10 years, it's never a comfortable situation. We certainly support that principle. This is where most first nation communities find themselves, as was raised earlier: that you can plan only for the next 12 months, instead of the next 12 years. It's the situation that many of our communities find themselves in.

[Gerald Keddy, Conservative, South Shore—St. Margaret's, NS]

Thank you.

Ms. McCormick, you talked a bit in your presentation about the German model. Around this table we've had some great discussion about the German model, the success that it's had, quite frankly, and the buy-in from everybody, from the educational institutions to private sector to society. It truly is a remarkable model. Whether the German model or the Swiss model is first and second in the world, both of them are great.

In your submission you asked that the federal government create a post-secondary education act in cooperation with the provinces, with a dedicated cash transfer modelled after the Canada health transfer. That's a big ask. How much do you foresee that transfer being? How many students would that affect? Again, would it be all federal dollars, or would there be some private sector partnerships?

[Jessica McCormick]

Right, it's a big question.

We talked about the dedicated transfer payment in the recommendations. One of the main reasons we bring it up is it allows for a level of accountability for investments that are being made in the provinces. Whatever arrangement is made, and this is very similar to the German model where there's a lot of cooperation between the federal government and the states, it needs to be something that's developed in cooperation with the provinces, because similarly, here provinces have jurisdiction over post-secondary education.

On the specifics of the number of students that would benefit, I don't have that number. We can come back to the committee to provide it in more detail. But I think whatever the arrangement is, similar to in Germany, it needs cooperation between provincial governments and a level of accountability for the investments that are being made by the federal government.

[Gerald Keddy, Conservative, South Shore—St. Margaret's, NS]

If you could get those numbers back to the committee, that would be appreciated.

[Jessica McCormick]

Absolutely. Sure.

[Gerald Keddy, Conservative, South Shore—St. Margaret's, NS]

Finally, because I just have to ask this question of the National Initiative for Eating Disorders, one of the highest mortality rates of mental illness—

[The Vice-Chair, Liberal, Scott Brison]

I'm sorry, your seven minutes are up.

[Gerald Keddy, Conservative, South Shore—St. Margaret's, NS]

—in the world is an outstanding statistic. I don't know how you deal with that. And I'm out of time.

[The Vice-Chair, Liberal, Scott Brison]

If I could have helped my neighbour from Nova Scotia, I would have.

Mr. Caron, you have the floor. You have five minutes at your disposal.

[Guy Caron, NDP, Rimouski-Neigette—Témiscouata—Les Basques, QC]

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.

Thank you to all of you for your presentations.

I'd like to be able to put questions to each and every one of you, but I only have five minutes. I will speak to Chief Picard. I also want to welcome Chief Traverse to the committee.

One thing really surprised me. I knew that the transfer increase ceiling was 2%, but I just realized that that is the way it has been for 18 years. In your brief, you did specify that during the same period, the average transfer increase from Ottawa to the provinces and the territories was 6%. You also estimated that since 1996 the shortfall caused by that ceiling was of $3 billion. Did you calculate that $3 billion using the cost of living increase, or does it also reflect population growth in aboriginal communities?

[Chief Ghislain Picard]

Indeed, those two arguments at least support the figures that we have put forward. Demographic growth among first nations is unequalled anywhere else in the country. So it is very important to also consider those realities.

By the same token, we must also realize that if we do not invest in housing, that is going to have impacts on education and health care costs. Those costs may potentially double if not triple.

[Guy Caron, NDP, Rimouski-Neigette—Témiscouata—Les Basques, QC]

Chief Traverse talked about infrastructure in Manitoba, particularly in the north of the province. I think there is an infrastructure problem throughout the whole country. Take Attawapiskat, in 2011, and the crisis that took place there. I'm also aware of the situation in northern Quebec, especially in the Innu and Inuit communities. To get back to Attawapiskat, in 2011 there was a crisis and it became known that there were crises as well in several other communities. How would you assess the progress made on infrastructure since 2011, that is since the whole issue of infrastructure came back to the fore in the news?

[Chief Ghislain Picard]

Once again, you are raising the issue of infrastructure. That matter is intimately linked to what I was saying earlier, which is the issue of what is given to the provinces and what is made available to our communities. I was pointing to the fact that there has been a ceiling in place now for close to 20 years, where infrastructure is concerned in particular.

In addition, since the budget is already so tight—and has been for close to 20 years—from one year to the next there may be budgetary reallocations. I am referring to funds that were normally designated or reserved for infrastructure and were reallocated to other programs or other sectors such as health care and social assistance. The impact of that can be that our needs will be multiplied by a factor of five or ten in some sectors.

[Guy Caron, NDP, Rimouski-Neigette—Témiscouata—Les Basques, QC]

You say that currently, the communication between the government and the Assembly of First Nations or other representatives has essentially been interrupted, or has broken down. In the past, however, you did have discussions with the federal government. How did it justify the decision to limit transfer increases to 2%—transfers to aboriginal communities—whereas transfers to provinces and territories were larger? What argument did the government use to defend that decision?

[Chief Ghislain Picard]

We sure would like to have an answer to that question.

I think that beyond that, that can be a basis to try to better define the framework that has to be created for the First Nations, the governments we represent and the federal government. In my opinion, and with all due respect for the different organizations that come before the committee, I think that the framework needed for the First Nations is on a whole other plane and requires a much broader intervention.

[Guy Caron, NDP, Rimouski-Neigette—Témiscouata—Les Basques, QC]

Thank you.

I only have a minute left, but I have a last question for you.

In your brief, you also raised the issue of the aboriginal women who have disappeared and been murdered. The debate is ongoing at this time and our position is that there should be an inquiry into this. The government's reply is that it has a $25-million action plan, over five years. Is that sufficient? What is your interpretation of the priorities in that action plan?

[Chief Ghislain Picard]

On the face of it, we think that that is not enough. However, such an inquiry might shed light on the causes of that situation throughout the country, some if which have not been identified, allowing us then to perhaps better gauge the needs of the communities.

[The Chair, Conservative, James Rajotte]

Very well. Thank you.

Thank you, Mr. Caron.

We're going to Mr. Adler next, for a five-minute round.

[Mark Adler, Conservative, York Centre, ON]

Thanks to all of you for being here this afternoon.

I want to pursue my line of questioning with Mr. Rogers.

Portia de Rossi, Lindsay Lohan, and Snooki: celebrity after celebrity, high-profile people, have suffered from eating disorders. Everybody knows somebody with an eating disorder, yet why is there so much ignorance about eating disorders? Why do people who don't understand just say that all you have to do is eat more and you'll be fine, or just eat a big meal and you'll be fine? Why do only 12 of 4,100 psychiatrists specialize in eating disorders? Why are there so few resources committed to the treatment of eating disorders in Canada?

[Bill Rogers]

It's an excellent question and one that I've asked myself many times. We've looked at it and looked at it. Everyone has an experience, but what we don't have.... I talked earlier about things like the charting that goes on in hospitals.

I'll give you another example. When a child or an adolescent goes into the hospital with a severe eating disorder issue and they need to be hospitalized, they have to be put under a different category in order to allow the hospital to admit them to the hospital for the number of days it's going to take. Eating disorders have been hidden under other mental categories for so many years that there is just no data.

When you talk to administrators and provincial regulators around this, they know the problem is there. Everyone knows it's there, but it's very difficult for people with scarce budgets and limited time to allocate on the basis of what they think they know. It's our view that if we can get this data out into the public and in front of the regulators, both federally and provincially, it will compel them to start investing the time and the money in these programs to save the poor patients who suffer with this disease.

[Mark Adler, Conservative, York Centre, ON]

This is a widespread issue. This is not just in the health community. The police get involved, so there's criminal justice. This is widespread, so it's not just about educating people to identify eating disorders. It's much more than that. Can you talk about that?

[Bill Rogers]

Sure. I'm happy to do that.

It's twofold. They're a big burden on the health care system, there's no question about it, because it's continual. If we can prevent it and cure it, we can keep them out of hospital.

The second thing that happens, particularly with youth, is that you'll find them being picked up for stealing, for all kinds of criminal activities. That leads to it, because they're hungry. Parents don't want them to eat, so they go out and steal. We have that burden. We also have the burden of the families, which is a huge economic problem. We see families all the time. These are parents who lose their jobs, who are afraid to leave because their kids are so sick and there's no place to take them. There are no programs to help them, so they have to stay home. They're worried about suicide and issues like that. It's a huge economic burden.

We don't know what the data is, but I can tell you that phones ring off the hook at NIED with people looking for help, because there just is none in this country. We believe that if we can get the data together and get that out there, we can make a huge difference in this disease and actually do something that's preventable, and we can cure it.