Evidence of meeting #115 for Finance in the 44th Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was witnesses.

A recording is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Isabelle Demers  Vice-President, Development, Public Affairs and Innovation Strategic, Association des professionnels de la construction et de l'habitation du Québec
Jasmin Guénette  Vice-President, National Affairs, Canadian Federation of Independent Business
Christina Santini  Director, National Affairs, Canadian Federation of Independent Business
Emily Niles  Senior Research Officer, Canadian Union of Public Employees
Aditya Rao  Senior Officer, Human Rights, Canadian Union of Public Employees
Michael Cooper  Chief Responsible Officer, Dream Unlimited Corp.
Keith Dicker  Chief Investment Officer, IceCap Asset Management Limited
Tim Blair  Chief Executive Officer, Kindred Works

12:55 p.m.

Conservative

Marty Morantz Conservative Charleswood—St. James—Assiniboia—Headingley, MB

Yes, exactly. That seems like an awfully big assumption.

I want to say that I hope the mover of the motion is right. Frankly, I hope the mover of the motion is right that Albertans want to stay in the Canada pension plan, but I don't see how I could vote for a motion that makes such a broad assumption about the opinions of.... How many people live in Alberta these days? Is it four million? I wouldn't presume to profess what four million people might think at any given time, so I think it's a bit of a stretch to ask a standing committee of the Parliament of Canada to make such a blunt observation without empirical data to support it.

For that reason alone, number three is out. I can't see how we could possibly support it.

The motion then goes on to say “who are opposed to Premier Danielle Smith's dangerous plan”. I don't know what her plan is. I know the Liberals have a hidden agenda, but I'm not sure that Ms. Smith has a plan. I guess we'll have to see. I think what she wants to do is consult with Albertans to find out whether or not there's any buy-in for this idea among the people of Alberta. Again, we don't know the answer to that question.

With that, Mr. Chair, I could go on and on, but I think I'll simply move to adjourn.

1 p.m.

Liberal

Yvan Baker Liberal Etobicoke Centre, ON

I have a point of order, Chair.

Can I clarify what that means? He's moved to adjourn. What does that mean?

1 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Peter Fonseca

He moved to adjourn. We have to go to a vote.

1 p.m.

Liberal

Yvan Baker Liberal Etobicoke Centre, ON

I'm just clarifying what the vote is. That's all.

1 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Peter Fonseca

We'll wait until Alexandre gets in the chair, so we have both here.

1 p.m.

Conservative

Marty Morantz Conservative Charleswood—St. James—Assiniboia—Headingley, MB

My understanding is that it's a dilatory motion, Mr. Chair.

If everyone isn't in their seats, that's too bad.

1 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Peter Fonseca

MP Morantz, we're going to get to this vote.

1 p.m.

Conservative

Marty Morantz Conservative Charleswood—St. James—Assiniboia—Headingley, MB

If they're not at their seats, you have to call the vote.

If they're not here, you have to call a vote.

1 p.m.

An hon. member

I've never seen you delay this long for a vote.

1 p.m.

Liberal

Yvan Baker Liberal Etobicoke Centre, ON

Gentlemen, I have seen you delay votes a lot of times in my time on the finance committee. Please don't go down that road with me.

I'm happy to go to the vote. I was just clarifying.

1 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Peter Fonseca

I will turn to the clerk.

(Motion negatived: nays 6; yeas 5)

We will continue.

1 p.m.

Bloc

Gabriel Ste-Marie Bloc Joliette, QC

I have a point of order, Mr. Chair.

I find the points raised very interesting, but I unfortunately must leave you. Mr. Xavier Barsalou-Duval will replace me at the table as the representative of the Bloc Québécois.

Goodbye, and I can assure Mr. Morantz that I will check the “blues” before the next meeting so I'm informed of everything that's been said.

1 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Peter Fonseca

Thank you, Mr. Ste-Marie.

I have MP Morantz.

1 p.m.

Conservative

Marty Morantz Conservative Charleswood—St. James—Assiniboia—Headingley, MB

I do want to thank Mr. Ste-Marie. I always appreciate his perspective and his viewpoints on the important issues that come before this committee.

One of the things that I think is also very important to do is that, if we're asked to vote on a motion about the Canada pension plan, we need to do a bit of a deep dive for Canadians on what exactly the Canada pension plan is.

With that, I thought I would talk a little bit about what it does. The Canada pension plan “mandates all employed Canadians who are 18 years of age and over to contribute a prescribed portion of their earnings income (with an equal matching amount contributed by their employers) to a federally administered pension plan. The plan is administered by Employment and Social Development Canada on behalf of employees in all provinces and territories except Quebec, which operates an equivalent plan”.

We have talked about that. It's actually in the motion, in point 2. I'll just maybe revisit that so that we can confirm that.

Point 2 does say that it “Recognizes the important contribution of the Quebec Pension Plan which was established independently at the same time as the Canada Pension Plan”. That's why the plan is administered by Employment and Social Development Canada on behalf of all the provinces except for Quebec, because Quebec has its own plan, the Quebec pension plan.

This says, “Because the Constitutional authority for pensions is shared between the provincial and federal governments, stewardship for the CPP is jointly shared. As a result, major changes to the CPP (including those that alter how benefits are calculated) require the approval of at least seven Canadian provinces representing at least two-thirds of the country's population.”

That is very interesting, Mr. Chair. I don't think I realized that before.

That's really important because we're all in this together. This Canada pension plan is so important that the great minds who thought about it, who conceived of the legislation to create and give life to the Canada pension plan, decided that it should not be subject to being changed unilaterally by, for example, a single minister, like we saw, for example, in Bill C-34.

Bill C-34 gives the minister alone the authority to approve a foreign investment without the need for cabinet oversight. I have to say that, certainly, with regard to the people who drafted the CPP legislation, this provision tells me that they had wisdom. They understood that this was too big, that it would be too much power to place in the hands of any one person.

What did they do? They said that any major changes to the CPP, including those that alter how benefits are calculated, require the approval of at least seven Canadian provinces representing at least two-thirds of the country's population. That is a very high bar.

Let's see. There are about 40 million people here. Two-thirds of that is roughly about 28 million or 29 million. What is two-thirds of 40 million? It's about 25 million. I know the math is hard, but it's about 26 million or 27 million people who you would need. That's a very high bar, across seven provinces. That's a very important provision of the Canada pension plan.

I'll continue: “Provinces may choose to opt out of the Canada Pension Plan; as Quebec did in 1965, but must offer a comparable plan to its residents. Any province may establish an additional/supplementary plan anytime as under section 94A of the Canadian Constitution, pensions are a provincial responsibility.

“The CPP Fund is a professionally managed investment fund and it is overseen by the Canada Pension Plan Investment Board (CPPIB), an independent organization that reports to the federal and provincial governments. The CPPIB's investment strategy is guided by a set of principles that emphasize long-term benefits security, a focus on quality, and a commitment to sustainability and responsible investment practices. The CPPIB also regularly reports on its investment performance and activities, and is subject to oversight by the federal and provincial governments.”

As I said a little earlier, Mr. Chair, I am getting over a bit of a cold, and I'm finding it a little difficult to talk without coughing. I have to have some respect for the translators. I worry about the translators.

Hello over there. How are you? They're waving back.

Thank you very much. I want you to know that I don't want to offend your ears because of my raspy cough, so I am going to take a bit of a break to rest up.

My colleagues who can speak more clearly will take up the microphone and I will relinquish the mike.

1:10 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Peter Fonseca

Thank you, MP Morantz.

Our interpreters do a fabulous job, and we always want to protect them as much as we can.

Now, I have MP Lawrence.

The floor is yours.

1:10 p.m.

Conservative

Philip Lawrence Conservative Northumberland—Peterborough South, ON

Thank you very much, Chair.

Chair, could you give us an update as to how long we have resources? I hope it's a long time because I have a lot of material to go through.

1:10 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Peter Fonseca

I understand that we do have resources for a long time.

1:10 p.m.

Conservative

Philip Lawrence Conservative Northumberland—Peterborough South, ON

A long time—thank you for your specificness.

1:10 p.m.

NDP

Daniel Blaikie NDP Elmwood—Transcona, MB

You're still trying to personally raise Canada's productivity—

1:10 p.m.

Conservative

Philip Lawrence Conservative Northumberland—Peterborough South, ON

Do you know what? That might be my election sign in the next campaign.

Heckles are coming from the NDP, but it's no surprise after eight years of an NDP-Liberal government that there is frustration brewing.

It was good for the chair to point out the last time I had the floor with respect to this motion that we should stay directly on topic, so I just want to start here so I can get ahead of any objections to the discussion I'm going to have.

My colleague, Mr. Morantz, actually pointed this out to me. In the first line of the motion it says, “Celebrates the Canada Pension Plan as the foundation of a secure and dignified retirement for tens of millions of Canadians and a pillar of Canada's economy”. Of course, Conservatives agree and we would encourage Albertans to stay in the CPP, but what I really want to point out there is “a pillar of Canada's economy”. Right in the motion there is talk about Canada's economy.

That's what I'm going to talk about. I'm going to talk about the motion and specifically Canada's economy, as it is in the very text of the motion, in fact, in the first line of the motion. We couldn't get much more germane than talking about something deliberately put into the motion, I would suspect.

I'm going to start by talking a little bit about carbon tax math. Of course, originally I had the great privilege of asking the Governor of the Bank of Canada what the inflationary impact of the carbon tax was. I've repeated this multiple times. It just doesn't seem like those on the left can do math, because they don't understand what the Governor of the Bank of Canada said. He said it clearly over the last two years, and they still don't understand it.

This is what Governor Macklem, who, by the way, is a Liberal appointee working for the Bank of Canada, hardly a right-wing partisan hack, said. He said that 0.6% of inflation—that's 60 basis points; that's a huge massive amount of inflation—can be directly attributed to the carbon tax on fuel. It's not even comprehensive. It doesn't include all the economic impacts of the carbon tax. He said the direct impact is 0.6%.

Right now, inflation is at 3.8%. If Prime Minister Trudeau were to rise in the House of Commons today and say, “We are introducing legislation to eliminate the carbon tax,” I'm pretty sure that our party would give unanimous consent to get it done. We could remove it literally in one day. We would remove that 0.6%, which equates to 16% of total inflation. It should be pointed out that there's a part, a small amount of inflation, that is “healthy inflation”, and you certainly don't want to go into disinflation, so 2% is the target of the Bank of Canada. That's healthy inflation. Everything above that is excessive and unhealthy, and that's what's contributing to your mortgage going up, your rent going up and your food costs going up. If you look at that 0.6%, that's actually 33% of unhealthy inflation. This is massive.

We hear lots of demagoguing and frustration, but this is just math. Reasonable minds can disagree on things, and I understand that, given all the economic theories and other discussions as to how an economy should work, but on math there should be no disagreement.

Despite this—and we can pull the Hansard—I heard numerous members of the NDP-Liberal coalition, the costly coalition, note that it was actually 0.15%. Governor Macklem never said that. What he said was that the increase in inflation was 0.15%. What's more is that, if you want to include the increase, we're actually going to be quadrupling—if this government stays in power, God forbid—the carbon tax. That means it will have an inflationary impact of over 2%, of over 200 basis points.

Markets don't just price in the things that happen right now. They're pricing in things in the future. The impact of that is absolutely dramatic.

In addition to the inflationary impact, I was really looking forward today to hearing from the CFIB, because it's done great work on the impact of the carbon tax. Actually, right here, in its submission, it's actually quoting the Parliamentary Budget Officer. Once again, this is the budgetary watchdog appointed by whom? Oh, it's the Liberals.

Herein I read:

For instance, a 2022 report from the the Parliamentary Budget Officer showed that a $170/tonne...on carbon will reduce real [GDP] in Canada by 1.3% by 2030 as well as result in a 2.3% reduction in labour income—

That's 2% of labour income across the board, which is hundreds of millions of dollars, if not billions of dollars.

—and a 3.6% decline in investment income. Other reports estimate a 1.8% reduction in GDP and...almost 200,000 jobs [lost] nationally....

That's because of the carbon tax.

They say that we're facing climate change. I've said it numerous times. Just so my Liberal members can hear me clearly: Climate change is real. I've said that consistently since I was elected. However, the other part that's real is that the carbon tax isn't impacting climate change. How many emissions reduction targets have we, as a country, hit in the last eight years? How many? You are right. It's zero, not one.

Actually, the environment commissioner was out just the other day and said that we're not on target to hit the 2030 targets, that we're not going to hit our Paris accord targets. The only time that there's ever been, in the last eight years, any meaningful reduction in emissions was because of COVID. Other than that, this government's track record on emissions reductions is bleak at best.

The carbon tax is all pain and no gain. It is hurting our economy. When we look at this, it's particularly.... If our economy were going gangbusters—

1:15 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Peter Fonseca

Excuse me, MP Lawrence. I'm going to interject.

We're going to suspend just so that we can give our interpreters some time, and then we'll be back.

1:15 p.m.

Conservative

Philip Lawrence Conservative Northumberland—Peterborough South, ON

Sure. Our interpreters are doing a great job.

Thank you.

1:15 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Peter Fonseca

We'll suspend.

1:25 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Peter Fonseca

Members, we're back, but it's just for some information. We are looking to be back, possibly, at 3:30 p.m.

We're suspended until then.

3:35 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Peter Fonseca

Members, we're back.

I was conferring with the clerk. We've had some technical challenges that we were dealing with.

At this time, we are going to adjourn. We will be coming back to this when we get back to Ottawa, and that will be on November 20.