Evidence of meeting #117 for Finance in the 44th Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was ontario.
11:50 a.m.
Conservative
Adam Chambers Conservative Simcoe North, ON
Thank you very much. That's a very interesting proposal.
You mentioned that you were hoping to see the government fund the disabilities act at least for three years, but do you have a ballpark range in your mind that you would be happy to see provisioned on an annual basis?
11:55 a.m.
Executive Director, Knowledge Mobilization and Transformation, Inclusion Canada
We've outlined that in our brief. Our start would be around $22 billion annually, indexed to inflation of course. We're not economists at Inclusion Canada, for sure, but we based it on the number of people on social disability supports in the provinces and territories. What we suggested in our brief is that the minimum monthly amount would be $2,400. That is a combined amount, so that is the provincial-territorial disability assistance, and then the federal top-up on top of that.
11:55 a.m.
Conservative
11:55 a.m.
Executive Director, Knowledge Mobilization and Transformation, Inclusion Canada
That's correct.
11:55 a.m.
Conservative
Adam Chambers Conservative Simcoe North, ON
Okay. Thank you very much.
For CBA, you're an economist. Is that right, sir? Have you ever witnessed an industry where an increase in taxes has resulted in a reduction of the prices or fees to the end consumer?
11:55 a.m.
Vice President and Head Economist, Financial Stability and Banking Policy, Canadian Bankers Association
I think that gets to our first recommendation around the need to have a comprehensive tax reform. The tax system that we have right now has been around for decades, and I think it needs to be updated to address questions around the net-zero transition, labour productivity and these sorts of things. That's why the first recommendation in our submission is around tax reform.
November 14th, 2023 / 11:55 a.m.
Conservative
Adam Chambers Conservative Simcoe North, ON
Thank you very much. I think I have about 30 seconds left.
Ms. Pohlmann, the government announced a top-up to the rural carbon tax, which is supposed to be funded from the 10% of the carbon tax that was supposed to be set aside for businesses. That's my understanding.
Is that what your understanding is?
11:55 a.m.
Executive Vice-President, Advocacy, Canadian Federation of Independent Business
We actually tried to get that validated. What we came to understand, after many discussions with finance, is that it's not going to be funded from the $2.5 billion that's already been earmarked. From what I understand, I think it's going to be an excess amount that they determined was going to be brought in, in the future, and they were going to take that out. That was the explanation we were provided with.
11:55 a.m.
Liberal
11:55 a.m.
Liberal
Yvan Baker Liberal Etobicoke Centre, ON
Super.
Thank you all for being here today.
I won't have a chance to ask all of you questions, but I think we're learning a lot from your testimony on a diverse and important set of topics.
Thank you very much.
I'd like to go to Mr. Ouellette first.
Mr. Ouellette, I was an Ontario MLA when the Ontario government supported the founding of your university, and I have another connection with your university in that my fiancé, Amanda Simard, fought for this project to be become a reality when she was an Ontario MLA too. She says hello to you and your team, by the way.
My riding of Etobicoke Centre is a suburban Toronto constituency. It has a small francophone community. As you can see, I've learned French. My family isn't francophone. My parents paid for me to learn French when I was young. Earlier you mentioned anglicization, but I can assure you Amanda is francizing me.
On a more serious note, for those of my fellow citizens who are watching, would you please tell us why your university is important?
11:55 a.m.
President, Université de l'Ontario français
Thank you for your question. Please say hello to Ms. Simard for me.
That's an important question, and I'm quite regularly asked it. As I said earlier, I was born in Ontario, I've spent my entire life here, and I believe all Ontario francophones think it's important to support the vitality of the francophone community in Ontario.
It's also very important for Canada to continue supporting the francization of the population of central and southwestern Ontario because, as I said in my opening remarks, 36% of francophones outside Quebec live here in this region. It's the largest group of francophones in Canada outside Quebec. I realize they aren't necessarily easy to find because there aren't really any francophone enclaves or islands in the city of Toronto, but a very large group of francophones lives here in Toronto, in greater Toronto and in central and southwestern Ontario.
It would be a bad sign for the francophonie outside Quebec if we weren't in a position to support the development of francophone leadership by establishing a university. If we want a symbolically and actually strong francophonie across the country, we need to produce the next generation of francophone leaders. The best way to do that is to establish a French-language university.
Noon
Liberal
Yvan Baker Liberal Etobicoke Centre, ON
In answering Mr. Ste-Marie, you said that urgent measures should be taken to protect the French language. Apart from supporting your university, what are those measures?
Noon
President, Université de l'Ontario français
I'm going to name one because I don't want to name too many.
One thing would be very useful to Toronto francophones, and that would be to have a gathering place. As I said earlier, Toronto francophones are dispersed here and there over a very large area.
We represent a small percentage of the population, and the fact that we don't have a place where we can gather is a risk for us. So that would be an extremely important project. I think it would be very important to have a place that's clearly indicated as the place where francophones meet for community celebrations, for example, so that a kind of life exists in French outside the university.
Noon
Liberal
Yvan Baker Liberal Etobicoke Centre, ON
I have 30 seconds left.
Is French-language instruction as important at other levels?
Noon
President, Université de l'Ontario français
It's extremely important, as are immersion programs.
I mentioned in my opening remarks that there were twice as many students in immersion programs as in French-language programs. So if we want to offer job opportunities to students who are in immersion programs, the university is extremely important. It definitely has its place.
You have to consider that potential and continue supporting French-language instruction at all other levels, starting in kindergarten and continuing through life-long learning.
Noon
Bloc
Gabriel Ste-Marie Bloc Joliette, QC
Thank you, Mr. Chair.
Ms. Pohlmann, you warned us about the problems associated with repayment of the Canada emergency business account loan.
If the figures I have here are accurate, 19% of SMEs—that's 200,000—will be in serious trouble if the repayment schedule isn't pushed back a year.
We've often confronted the government on this, and we have the sympathy of many ministers, but there seems to be a problem with Ms. Freeland and the senior officials on her team. They think it would cost too much, and they want to turn the page on programs that were offered during the pandemic. We wonder what the costs associated with the bankruptcies of hundreds of thousands of SMEs would be.
What would you tell the minister to convince her to delay repayment by another year?
Noon
Executive Vice-President, Advocacy, Canadian Federation of Independent Business
If we don't delay, as you identified, we believe that there will be about 18% or 19% of businesses at risk of closing. In addition, there's about one-third in total who are saying that there's no way they're going to be able to pay by January 18. It's going to be a struggle for them to figure out how they're going to pay it.
We're already seeing all kinds of statistics showing that small businesses are closing their doors. We've seen more door closures—since 2008—over the last two or three years. Bankruptcies are up 40% year over year. Bankruptcies are just a small fraction of it. They're the tip of the iceberg. Most businesses just simply close their doors and walk away.
We're concerned that if we don't delay the year, more businesses will go bankrupt, which means the government will not get that money. If we give them more time, hopefully more of them will be able to pay it back; they will be able to honour their commitment.
Being able to keep the forgivable portion is really important. For many people, that's good. It's a large amount of money for a small business to have to come up with. If they have a $60,000 loan and they have to pay back all $60,000, even at 5%, that's going to be rough to do over.... The extra year has been great. It will be three years now to pay it off, but it's still going to be a real struggle for many of them.
If we can give them a little more time to get the forgivable portion and then have another two years after that to pay the rest, I think that would go a long way towards helping many of them.
12:05 p.m.
Bloc
Gabriel Ste-Marie Bloc Joliette, QC
Thank you.
So you think that pushing the deadline back another year might then be a benefit for the government. Is that correct?
12:05 p.m.
Executive Vice-President, Advocacy, Canadian Federation of Independent Business
Yes, we believe that it will probably be a benefit. We believe that some businesses will end up going out of business and government will never be able to recover the money they would have owed in the first place. We believe that it will be of benefit to the government.
12:05 p.m.
Liberal
12:05 p.m.
NDP
Matthew Green NDP Hamilton Centre, ON
Do I have two minutes?
I have two and a half. I'll take that extra 30 seconds. Thank you very much.
I want to talk a little bit about banking.
You mentioned under-regulated or unregulated markets. I want to speak specifically about the payday loan market and the impact it's having on the community.
You would know, of course, that section 347 of the Criminal Code ranks 60% interest as usury. Is that correct?
