Finance Committee on Nov. 20th, 2023

[Gabriel Ste-Marie, Bloc, Joliette, QC]

I have a point of order, Mr. Chair.

[The Chair, Liberal, Peter Fonseca]

We have a point of order.

[Gabriel Ste-Marie, Bloc, Joliette, QC]

Again, the honourable member enjoys misleading the committee. What the previous Quebec government sought out to do was provide an overview of the situation—not to pursue industrial development of the resources, but to document the existing resources. That's not at all the same thing.

Thank you.

[The Chair, Liberal, Peter Fonseca]

Merci, MP Ste.-Marie.

[Philip Lawrence, Conservative, Northumberland—Peterborough South, ON]

I have a point of order.

[The Chair, Liberal, Peter Fonseca]

It's not a point of order, but I'll ask MP Deltell if he would like to clarify.

It's up to you.

On a point of order, MP Lawrence.

[Philip Lawrence, Conservative, Northumberland—Peterborough South, ON]

Thank you.

That is not a point of order.

[The Chair, Liberal, Peter Fonseca]

That's correct.

It's up to MP Deltell if he'd like to clarify.

[Gérard Deltell, Conservative, Louis-Saint-Laurent, QC]

Mr. Chair, the reality is the reality. If the government didn't plan to develop the resources, why exactly did it carry out an assessment? That's what I want to know.

Now, let's get back to a very important point, the fact that this government empowered itself to do what the provinces were already doing. It's duplicating the process that is already taking place. As far as we're concerned—this is the point I was making, and the member for Joliette will no doubt agree—the experts at the Bureau d'audiences publiques sur l'environnement du Québec are just as skilled as the environmental experts in Ottawa. They are experts, so why do the work twice, if not to delay projects?

Goodness knows that, as we speak, we need green energy and we need hydroelectric projects. The matter is currently being debated in Quebec society, and that's a good thing. Although I stay out of matters that fall under provincial jurisdiction, I must say that I would welcome Quebec building more hydroelectric dams and enhancing its incredible hydroelectric capacity. The very nature of our territory—our geography, our waters—gives us the good fortune of having rivers that fuel this tremendous energy, and so much the better.

Why, then, is Ottawa getting mixed up in things that are none of its business? Unless we build a dam on the St. Lawrence Seaway, it doesn't concern Ottawa—not that I think there would ever be a dam on the St. Lawrence Seaway, anyway. I'm sure the member for Joliette would agree.

We see the federal government's insatiable appetite to interfere in matters that are none of its business. From where we stand, being in a confederation means respecting every province's desires and aspirations for development, in keeping with the Canadian Constitution—and that's how it should be.

Bear in mind that in the forties and fifties, when Quebec undertook large-scale studies and projects to develop its hydroelectric capacity, Ottawa got involved. We have to recognize that, at the time, the provincial authorities were also—

[Rachel Bendayan, Liberal, Outremont, QC]

I have a point of order.

[Gérard Deltell, Conservative, Louis-Saint-Laurent, QC]

—competent and strong, ensuring that things were done the right way.

[Rachel Bendayan, Liberal, Outremont, QC]

I have a point of order, Mr. Chair. While this back and forth between the Bloc Québécois member and the Conservative member is fascinating, as is the review of Quebec's hydroelectric history, I think the discussion has veered away from the Conservative amendment on the table and the original motion, which—may I remind the committee—pertains to pensions.

Also, I want to take this opportunity to reach out to my Conservative friends. I understood from Mr. Chambers' comments that if the minister agreed to appear before the committee as part of a separate study, not a study on the bill, we could move to a vote and the Conservative members would abstain. I was sure I heard Mr. Chambers make that offer.

I checked on my end, and I have confirmation that the minister will appear before the committee to answer questions in connection with a study, not the bill, on December 7.

Thank you.

[The Chair, Liberal, Peter Fonseca]

Ms. Bendayan, that is not a point of order.

MP Deltell, please.

[Gérard Deltell, Conservative, Louis-Saint-Laurent, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I want to thank the member for Outremont for her comments. She is well aware that I have the utmost respect and esteem for her. It always surprises me that certain members of her party are ministers and yet she is not. Obviously, that reflects on the Prime Minister's judgment, but that's another story.

The member for Outremont's motion says, word for word, that the committee “recognizes the important contribution of the Quebec Pension Plan which was established independently at the same time as the Canada Pension Plan”. It illustrates that a province is able to do one thing and the federal government, another. That is not what the federal government is in the habit of doing, however. Let's take a closer look. Some will argue that things are fine and Ottawa minds its own business, but I don't think so.

Luckily, in the forties and fifties, Quebec wanted to fully develop its hydroelectric potential, and that led to the province becoming a green energy powerhouse.

I will never apologize for being the environment and climate change critic or sharing with my fellow committee members the historical events that turned Quebec into what is now an energy powerhouse. Hydroelectricity is a powerful green energy not just for Quebec, but also for Canada as a whole. It came about because people made important decisions.

In 1944, the Liberal government announced the creation of Hydro-Québec and nationalized the Montreal Light, Heat and Power Company. The Beauharnois power plant already existed, but through expansion, its energy production tripled in the forties and fifties.

Great projects followed, projects that seem to have gotten lost in the collective history of Quebeckers, unfortunately. They were nevertheless present, as the full potential of the Bersimis river was realized. The project was extraordinary, literally blazing new trails. To give you a sense of the area, you go up the north shore till you get to about Forestville. You go about 100 kilometres inland, and there, in the middle of the forest, you'll see the Bersimis river. Two superpowerful hydroelectric dams were built in 1953 and 1956, and 70 years later, they are still in operation. A vision for the future was laid out in the 1970s, and this potential was fully realized under the leadership of Hydro-Québec, a Crown corporation.

At the same time, the North Shore was also home to a thorough assessment of the extraordinary potential of the Outardes and Manicouagan rivers, which run alongside one another. At the time, the assessment revealed that the rivers could accommodate seven hydroelectric dams. After recalculation, it was determined that six dams would ultimately be built. If anyone ever tells you that they've been to the Manic‑4 dam, they are lying, because no such dam was ever built. Manic‑1, Manic‑2, Manic‑3, Manic‑5, Outardes‑1 and Outardes‑2 were built. That hydroelectric potential was realized in the fifties. Studies were carried out, and construction of the iconic Manic‑5 dam was green-lit in 1958. It remains one of the greatest achievements in the minds of Quebeckers. It is a source of great pride for the nation, in particular, and rightfully so.

The same can be said of other initiatives to assess hydroelectric potential and build plants, including the one on Highway 50, the Carillon generating station, inaugurated in 1962 by René Lévesque, then minister of hydraulic resources. There's actually a great picture of René Lévesque with his son that was taken by photographer Antoine Desilets, the father of Luc Desilets, the member for Rivière-des-Mille-Îles, if memory serves me correctly. I have to give him a shout-out.

Quebec was able to develop its hydroelectric potential in the forties and fifties, and again, in the seventies with the great James Bay hydroelectric project. Let's not forget it was the subject of quite the debate at the time, with some arguing that the development wasn't necessarily a good idea and that it was better to pursue nuclear energy. That argument, which is perfectly legitimate, was put forward at the time.

Some rather peculiar statements by today's standards were made then. One commentator said it wasn't necessarily smart to erect a dam on every single Catholic French-Canadian river. The person who made that statement—which I repeated off the top of my head, but you get the gist—was no other than Jacques Parizeau, who, as we know, was very helpful to Quebec in other ways.

The reason I bring this up today is to remind members that when provincial jurisdiction is respected, great and wonderful things happen.

Hydroelectricity is a good example of that, but unfortunately, this federal Liberal government wants to encroach on areas that are not under its jurisdiction. We saw that in the case of hydroelectricity in Quebec. As the environment critic, I am extremely proud to talk about this enormous green energy potential. We also see that in today's motion, which recognizes the important contribution of the Quebec pension plan as well as the Canada pension plan.

At the time, there were discussions, debates and a bit of a tug‑of‑war, if you will. That is perfectly legitimate and entirely normal in a democracy. It worked out, as we see, because the will of the provinces was respected. The federal government needs to do its job, which is bringing people together and acting within its jurisdiction. If the provinces happen to have their own projects, the federal government needs to respect that. That's what happened in the case of the pension plans and hydroelectricity. With this government, though, we see a constant appetite to erode the current sector. That causes tension with the provinces but doesn't move anything forward.

I will leave it there. I wanted to share a different take on this debate. The principle is the same: the country is much better off when provincial jurisdiction is respected.

Thank you.

[The Chair, Liberal, Peter Fonseca]

Are you done, Mr. Deltell?

[Gérard Deltell, Conservative, Louis-Saint-Laurent, QC]

I may want to quickly read an article. In English, the headline more or less reads as follows: Drilling on Anticosti Island a good thing, says Minister Blanchet. The article was written by Paul Journet, an eminent journalist whose reputation is unassailable.

You look a little confused, Mr. Chair, so I can tell this is your first exposure to Mr. Journet. However, I do know that others here are familiar with him, including the member for Outremont, who knows him quite well. I do too, since he is an old colleague from my days as a reporter at the National Assembly of Quebec.

In a June 8, 2013 article in La Presse, Paul Journet wrote something along these lines:The regulations to protect water during drilling activities won't necessarily prevent oil exploration on Anticosti Island, and that's a good thing, according to environment minister Yves‑François Blanchet.

He is, of course, referring to the current leader of the Bloc Québécois.

[Gabriel Ste-Marie, Bloc, Joliette, QC]

I have a point of order, Mr. Chair.

[The Chair, Liberal, Peter Fonseca]

Go ahead, Mr. Ste‑Marie.

[Gabriel Ste-Marie, Bloc, Joliette, QC]

I want to remind the honourable members of the committee that the government of the day's goal was to map the existing resources by way of drilling. It wanted to quantify how much was there in order to frame the debate. Mr. Blanchet, the environment minister at the time, wanted to find out whether there were indeed resources. His thinking was that the quantity of resources wasn't significant, which could put an end to the debate.

The real purpose was exploratory drilling. As for how distinguished journalist Paul Journet was able to report the comments—

[The Chair, Liberal, Peter Fonseca]

Thank you, MP Ste-Marie.

It's not a point of order. We give a lot of latitude, but maybe MP Deltell would like to clarify that.

MP Deltell.

[Philip Lawrence, Conservative, Northumberland—Peterborough South, ON]

I have a a point of order.

[Gérard Deltell, Conservative, Louis-Saint-Laurent, QC]

May I remind the member that the article's headline proclaimed that, according to Minister Blanchet, drilling on Anticosti Island was a good thing?

[The Chair, Liberal, Peter Fonseca]

Okay, MP Deltell.

I have nobody left on my list.

MP Lawrence.

[Philip Lawrence, Conservative, Northumberland—Peterborough South, ON]

My apologies, Mr. Chair, but I did mention when I ceded the time that I'd like to go on.

[The Chair, Liberal, Peter Fonseca]

I'm sorry. I had you before MP Deltell, and then I didn't realize that you were coming on again.