Finance Committee on April 9th, 2024

[Yvan Baker, Liberal, Etobicoke Centre, ON]

Mr. Strickland, I want to take a moment to ask you another question.

We've heard from, and I'm sure we will be hearing from, businesses that are eagerly awaiting the investment tax credits that are part of this legislation.

Could you explain for the folks who are listening at home how the investment tax credits translate into business opportunities or investments, and how they translate into benefits for workers?

[Sean Strickland]

Absolutely. Thank you for the question, MP Baker.

In my travels across the country, and in working with my colleagues on provincial trades councils and working with owners and developers of projects, the list of projects that are being reviewed right now is unprecedented in Canadian history. They are waiting on this investment tax credit to help them get over the line in terms of financing these projects.

In Newfoundland and Labrador, there are five hydrogen projects going through a review. In Cape Breton, there are two hydrogen projects. One is pretty well close to a final investment decision, and another one is a little bit further behind. There's a clean energy project in Nova Scotia. There are clean energy projects in Quebec.

You heard from Pathways Alliance earlier that its carbon sequestration project, capping at around $25 billion at peak, will employ approximately 20,000 workers. Smaller modular reactors in New Brunswick and possibly in Alberta will employ 300 to 500 workers.

Thousands and thousands of jobs will be created through this investment tax credit once those companies have that certainty that they're going to be able to deduct that 30% from their capital expenditures. That's going to put them over the edge. It's also going to keep us competitive with the United States of America, which, by the way, has already put into place these investment tax credits. They are much richer than ours, and they have created over 200,000 jobs within 12 months.

When I say game-changer for construction workers, prevailing wages, more money in the jeans of Canadian construction workers, more opportunities, a great economic future and the path to net zero, this is winning legislation on multiple fronts.

I encourage you to get it done as quickly as possible.

[Yvan Baker, Liberal, Etobicoke Centre, ON]

Thank you very much.

[The Chair, Liberal, Peter Fonseca]

Thank you, Mr. Strickland, and MP Baker.

Next we have MP Ste-Marie, please.

[Gabriel Ste-Marie, Bloc, Joliette, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Mr. Céré, I would like to take the remaining minute to ask you another question.

Why do you believe it is important for the government to present its reform now, that is, in the budget that will be announced next week?

[Pierre Céré]

It is because too many expectations have been created across Canada, particularly among the seasonal workers in eastern Canada. A lot of people have been waiting since 2021-22. There have been too many statements, too many speeches, too many throne speeches and ministers' mandate letters. There have been too many expectations and workers have too often been disappointed. That disappointment is going to produce reactions.

If I have one piece of advice to give the government, it is to stop postponing and promising things. Now is the time to act.

As well, you have the parliamentary majority you need to make these changes. If you are not certain that a permanent law should be enacted, put a pilot project in place for five years, the time it takes to ascertain whether it is working.

This scheme has to be simplified and made more balanced, and more justice has to be incorporated into it. This is important and there are a lot of people waiting for it.

[The Chair, Liberal, Peter Fonseca]

Thank you, Mr. Ste-Marie.

We'll go to MP Davies for the last question for this panel.

[Don Davies, NDP, Vancouver Kingsway, BC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Mr. Strickland, in November, in response to the fall economic statement, you said, “We welcome the announcement of a new Department of Housing, Infrastructure, and Communities.” Bill C-59 enacts the department of housing, infrastructure and communities act which will transfer part of the federal housing portfolio to the office of Infrastructure Canada.

Can you outline why Canada's Building Trades Unions supports that provision?

[Sean Strickland]

As we all know, housing is a particular challenge for Canadians. We think that the more focus that can be brought on housing will help bring more housing to the market. We also know that it's not typically a federal area of responsibility. Regarding municipal, provincial, federal and multiple layers of government, we need to cut through that to get these houses built. That will provide more work opportunities for Canadians and, more importantly, help drive down the cost of housing to make it more affordable. We support any initiative that streamlines the government process to encourage housing in this country.

[The Chair, Liberal, Peter Fonseca]

Thank you, Mr. Strickland.

Thank you to all the witnesses on this panel today.

Thank you, MP Davies, for that final question.

Members and witnesses, we're going to transition now, so we are going to suspend as the fourth panel comes up to the table.

[The Chair, Liberal, Peter Fonseca]

This is our fourth panel today. I sincerely apologize that we are starting a little bit late. Things got backed up.

With us today, we have Lucas Cleveland, mayor of Cobourg, Ontario.

From the Canadian Counselling and Psychotherapy Association, we have Lindsey Thomson, director and registered psychotherapist, public affairs; and Mr. George Maringapasi, president-elect and registered counselling therapist.

From Dow Canada, we have W. Scott Thurlow, senior adviser, government affairs.

From Option consommateurs, we have Carlos Castiblanco, economist and analyst; and Ms. Sara Eve Levac, lawyer.

With that, we are going to start with the mayor of Cobourg, Lucas Cleveland, please.

[Lucas Cleveland, Mayor of Cobourg, Ontario, As an Individual]

Thank you.

I'm Lucas Cleveland, as you said.

[The Chair, Liberal, Peter Fonseca]

I apologize for interrupting, Mayor Cleveland. I know that you did not submit opening remarks for our interpreters. I would ask that the pace of your remarks not be too quick so that they can do their proper interpretation. Thank you.

[Lucas Claveland]

will do my best. Thank you very much, sir.

As introduced, I am Lucas Cleveland, the mayor of Cobourg.

For those who are unaware, Cobourg is the largest municipality in the county of Northumberland in Ontario. It's an idyllic, beachside, heritage-rich community with over 200 years of history. It's truly the hidden gem in southeastern Ontario, located just one hour east of Toronto along the beautiful coast of Lake Ontario. We find ourselves just south of Peterborough on the traditional treaty territory of the Mississauga Anishinabe.

I am here today to share my community's frustrations regarding the issues that are affecting them which have been left out of Bill C-59. I'm here to get your attention on behalf of my residents.

I want to ask, as an individual, why this bill continues to completely ignore our world-renowned natural gas sector and why we continue to miss opportunities surrounding LNG. I want to ask those questions as a journeyman, someone who spent 10 years in the oil and gas sector working on the rigs. You see, I'm one of those people who lost everything—my career, home and retirement savings—due to the decisions of this level of government. I'd like to ask why Bill C-59 doesn't address the $82-million-a-day opportunity of the LNG market, but that's not why I'm here today.

I'd like to address why this bill doesn't help small business owners, of which I am one. You see, after returning home from Alberta, I built a business with my partner within eight years. Yet, every year it gets harder to break even. I'm curious about why Bill C-59 continues the legacy of not standing with the small business community in this country. Again, however, that is not germane to why I'm here.

No. Today, I am here to speak for the citizens of Cobourg. I'm here because I desperately need this level of government to listen to their concerns, the ones they share with me every single day. I need you to listen, because they keep coming to me to fix the problems that only this level of government can actually fix.

You see, I'm the first person in Cobourg to ever be elected from the public straight to the mayor's office with zero public experience. I did it because I moved to this community just seven years ago. In the last seven years, as I built this business, I've watched our community drift into total chaos. I was happy just running my business, but our community is completely under siege. I needed to try to do something.

Here I stand 18 months later as a first-time mayor, proud of the drastic and immediate changes we made in Cobourg and at the county level. I am proud of the work and attention our local community and county are getting, both provincially and internationally, for the work we're doing. However, I need to get this level of government's attention, because, when I hear from my constituents, 99.5% of the issues they complain about day in and day out, the fears, concerns and things they want fixed and are asking me to fix, are issues that are up to this level of government to address.

When is this government going to seriously look at bail reform? Why isn't this part of Bill C-59? How many people need to be assaulted during their lunch breaks in my community, in front of their children, for just being in our community? How many more women need to feel attacked and threatened? How many times does the Cobourg Police Service need to arrest the same person for the same crime before we actually put them away so they stop terrorizing our community?

Why is there nothing in this bill addressing the failed drug strategy that is destroying my community? When will this government listen to the thousands of seniors, women and families in our communities and those from across this country who tell us they are afraid to come out of their homes due to the lawlessness, erratic behaviour and changing face of poverty and mental illness on our streets?

Why isn't Bill C-59 creating more treatment options for our most vulnerable? Let's talk about it, ladies and gentlemen. Why is there nothing in this bill about doing something for our most vulnerable to improve their lives? Why are we focused on protecting the rights of encampments, yet failing to do anything to address the systemic issues in our continuum of care? Why is it falling to us, the lowest tier of government agency, to enact bylaws in our community and set standards of care for our most vulnerable? We would love this bill to start focusing on delivering the mental health services we desperately need in our community, not on more dental health.

Ladies and gentlemen, it's not cavities that are destroying my community. Why doesn't this bill address any of the three major concerns of our community?

I realize that I'm out of time. I want to say thank you for allowing me the opportunity to speak. I am here to advocate for the most vulnerable in our community who need all levels of government to work together.

Most importantly, I am here to speak on behalf of the silent majority in our community. These are the people who are tired of watching beautiful towns like Cobourg fall into chaos and disrepair and who are tired of having the vocal minority in our communities influence the decisions of this government.

[The Chair, Liberal, Peter Fonseca]

Thank you.

You are going to have to—

[Lucas Claveland]

Thank you. I appreciate it and I hope I got your attention.

Thank you for giving me an opportunity to address this group of decision-makers. It has been an honour and a pleasure.

I look forward to your questions.

[The Chair, Liberal, Peter Fonseca]

Thank you.

There will be a lot of opportunity for questions.

Now we're going to get to the Canadian Counselling and Psychotherapy Association and president-elect George Maringapasi.

Welcome.

[George Maringapasi, President-Elect and Registered Counselling Therapist, Canadian Counselling and Psychotherapy Association]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

My name is George Maringapasi. I'm a registered counselling therapist in private practice in New Glasgow, Nova Scotia. My practice is inspired and informed by the central issue of accessibility to quality mental health services for everyone seeking care. To be here advocating for improved access through the removal of the financial barrier of GST/HST on counselling therapy and psychotherapy services is the greatest honour of my career so far.

I am before you today in my capacity as the president-elect of the Canadian Counselling and Psychotherapy Association to discuss a crucial topic that affects us all: mental health.

Mental health is an essential aspect of our well-being, yet it is often overlooked or stigmatized, and in our case, taxed. The CCPA has long advocated for a solution that could make a significant difference in the lives of many—tax-free therapy.

I represent the voices of close to 15,000 counsellors, counselling therapists and psychotherapists across the country who are encouraged, indeed enthusiastic, that we have been invited to this discussion. It is a sign that we are aligned in our assessment of the importance of providing quality, accessible and affordable mental health services to the people of Canada.

We applaud the proposed exemption of counselling therapy and psychotherapy services from GST and HST as tabled by the Minister of Finance in the 2023 fall economic statement and outlined in Bill C-59. We thank the many members of Parliament from all political parties, who have supported this cause. I would like to expressly thank the member for Cumberland—Colchester and the member for London—Fanshawe for their private members' bills that called for this change.

Counselling therapists and psychotherapists are qualified, competent and available to meet Canada's skyrocketing mental health care needs, yet the additional cost of GST/HST on their services is limiting their capacity to serve their communities and those seeking care.

Our profession meets the threshold for tax exemptions in the Excise Tax Act, as it is regulated in five provinces; however, the profession is regulated under two different titles, a decision that falls under provincial jurisdiction.

Counselling therapists and psychotherapists are the same in all but name. Take me, for example. I'm a registered counselling therapist in Nova Scotia. My colleague joining me here today, Lindsey Thomson, who's also our director for public affairs, is a registered psychotherapist in Ontario. We, like all who hold these regulated titles, share a common scope of practice, abide by similar codes of ethics and standards of practice, and have an equivalent training and education profile and a commitment and obligation to ongoing education. In the absence of regulation of our profession throughout Canada, CCPA offers voluntary and non-statutory self-regulation of the profession via our Canadian certified counsellor designation, which is a national certification program with similar requirements to the regulatory colleges.

We were excited to learn from the Canada Revenue Agency's recent public notices that the proposed amendment may apply to providers in unregulated provinces with equivalent qualifications. This means that individuals seeking care in unregulated provinces will potentially benefit from the same tax exemption as those in regulated provinces, thereby contributing to consistency and equity in accessing services from coast to coast to coast.

It is also our hope that this amendment will advance regulatory efforts in the unregulated provinces. Imagine a world where seeking therapy is not only encouraged but also financially accessible to all. By making counselling therapy and psychotherapy services tax free, we could remove a significant barrier, especially for those with limited financial resources.

This exemption could mean that your child, partner or friend seeking mental health treatment on a biweekly basis would be able to access an additional three to four sessions a year, based on an average cost of $100 to $150 per session. In many clients' experience, an additional four sessions can significantly improve their ability to fully adopt and integrate positive changes and habits for improved well-being.

Tax-free therapy is about investing in the well-being of our society. It's about acknowledging the importance of mental health and taking concrete steps to support those who are struggling. If the recent pandemic taught us anything, it is that Canadians do not have appropriate access to mental health care.

We humbly urge members of this committee to support this bill, to take action to implement tax-free therapy and to help see this proposal through to the finish line. We are almost there. Together we can create a more compassionate and mentally healthy society for all.

Thank you for this opportunity. We look forward to answering any of the committee's questions.

[The Chair, Liberal, Peter Fonseca]

Thank you, Mr. Maringapasi. We appreciate your remarks.

Now we'll move to Dow Canada.

We have W. Scott Thurlow with us.

[W. Scott Thurlow, Senior Advisor, Government Affairs, Dow Canada]

Good afternoon, Mr. Chair. Through you, I would like to extend my warmest regards to the other members of the committee.

I am proud to speak to the committee about Dow Canada. Dow operates two manufacturing sites in Alberta, located in Fort Saskatchewan and Lacombe County. The Alberta sites convert natural gas feedstock into ethane, ethylene and finally, polyethylene to be shipped to customers around the world. Our main product in Alberta, polyethylene, is sold to customers worldwide to make durable industrial goods as well as packaging and consumer products.

In Ontario, we have two manufacturing sites, one in West Hill in Scarborough and one near Sarnia. These facilities produce emulsions and speciality plastic resin, respectively.

On November 29, Dow's board of directors approved a final investment decision for the world's first net-zero scope 1 and scope 2 emissions ethylene and derivatives complex in Fort Saskatchewan, Alberta. Economically speaking, this brownfield investment enables Dow to deliver two million metric tons per annum, effectively tripling our current domestic production. At its peak, we expect 7,000 new construction jobs will be created.

Environmentally speaking, this investment will eliminate one million tonnes of CO2 even with our added growth. We will do this by converting hydrogen from cracker off-gas as a clean fuel while capturing and storing the remaining CO2. This investment paves the way for growth in Dow's entire packing and specialty plastics portfolio. This first-mover advantage gives us the ability to lead in capturing the growing demand for low-carbon solutions for Dow. It puts Dow out in front in delivering the first world-scale, fully integrated site with net-zero scope 1 and scope 2 emissions.

Dow's investment will leverage approximately $3 billion of additional investment from third party companies for circular hydrogen, CO2 capture and other infrastructure assets critical to the project expansion. Dow has announced that Linde was selected as the industrial gas partner for the supply of clean hydrogen and nitrogen for the site. Fluor was selected for the front-end engineering and design. Dow is partnering with Wolf Midstream, which will provide CO2 transportation along the Alberta trunk line.

Last month, Dow CEO Jim Fitterling joined Premier Smith at the CERA conference in Houston to talk about this investment. He noted that reducing carbon emissions in an energy-intensive industry takes the right investments, the right policies and the right partners.

Our Fort Saskatchewan Path2Zero project will serve as a leading example that industrial decarbonization not only is possible but also can be profitable when we work together. Fort Saskatchewan is strategic and advantaged because we have access to low-cost ethane. There is existing rail and export infrastructure that will be expanded to support these new global sales. We have government support, including subsidies that are offsetting a portion of the cost of our investment. It is also one of the few places in the world where existing infrastructure for carbon transportation and storage exists. This is a key reason why we have a first-mover advantage in low-carbon solutions.

Certainty in the investment environment we are operating in is certainly a key essential advantage. Therefore, I am here today to offer Dow Canada's support for Bill C-59 and the carbon capture, utilization and storage tax credit that it creates. These were first announced in budget 2021. It is high time we adopt them.

Similar measures were introduced, debated, adopted, implemented and deployed under the United States Inflation Reduction Act in less than two months.

I also offer our hearty support for the creation of a similar tax credit for the deployment of hydrogen technology. Similar to the CCUS tax credit, this was first mentioned in the previous budget. We are anxiously waiting to see it in next week's budget implementation act in association with next week's budget.

We urge Parliament to pass this bill expeditiously so that the certainty required to rely on these investment tax credits can be built directly into our investment models. These tax credits will help support the decarbonization of our operations in Fort Saskatchewan and our return to operation by 2030.

I want to repeat a key point. These credits will lead to absolute emissions reductions. In order for Canada to meet our emissions reduction goals, we need to see transformative investments like the one being made by our company. It is through advents in the chemistry sector that these deep emissions reductions will occur.

I welcome any questions the committee may have.

[The Chair, Liberal, Peter Fonseca]

Thank you, Mr. Thurlow. I'm sure they will have many questions for you.

Now we go to Option consommateurs, and I believe the time is going to be shared by Monsieur Castiblanco and Madame Levac.

Monsieur Castiblanco, go ahead, please.

[Carlos Castiblanco, Economist and Analyst, Option consommateurs]

Thank you so much.

Good afternoon, Mr. Chair.

Good afternoon, members of the committee.

Thank you for offering us the opportunity to present our comments today.

My name is Carlos Castiblanco and I am an economist and analyst at Option consommateurs. With me is my colleague Sara Eve Levac, who is a lawyer.

Option consommateurs was created in 1983 and is a non-profit association whose mission is to help consumers defend their rights. Option consommateurs is directly involved in issues relating to competition, housing, and measures that affect consumers.

We are therefore in a good position to provide you with our comments on Bill C‑59.

Option consommateurs welcomes the bill and sees it as a step forward for protecting Canadian consumers. Our remarks will focus on three areas that the bill addresses: adoption of the tax recommendations made by the Organisation for Economic Co-operation and Development or OECD, initiatives to stimulate access to housing, and measures to strengthen competition.

I would also note that we have submitted a brief setting out the details of our position on the bill.

Bill C-59 proposes that certain recommendations that came out of the OECD project to combat erosion of the tax base be adopted. The goal of one such measure is to limit unreasonable tax deductions for interest expenses and other financing costs.

That initiative, which is intended to prevent corporate profit shifting by multinational corporations, is worded too broadly, however. It could extend to Canadian corporations in the energy sector, which might see their indebtedness rise at the same pace as the investments needed for the energy transition.

That could have a negative effect on rates, by potentially increasing the financing costs for new projects. For that reason, we are seeking an exemption from the measures relating to section 18.1 of the Income Tax Act for Canadian projects that provide regulated utilities.

On the subject of housing, we support the elimination of the GST on new purpose-built rental units constructed by cooperative housing corporations. We also welcome the incorporation of the housing policy into the Department of Housing, Infrastructure and Communities, provided that close collaboration is established and that it respects the jurisdictions of the other governments. This reflects the federal government's commitment to diversifying the housing stock and taking the lead on these initiatives.

Again, we emphasize the need to maintain careful coordination among the various levels of government. We also stress the need to increase the funding for programs associated with the National Housing Strategy and coordination of the programs by the Minister of Housing, Infratucture and Communities.

I will now give the floor to my colleague Sara Eve Levac for our comments on the proposed amendments to the Competition Act.

[Sara Eve Levac, Lawyer, Option consommateurs]

Thank you.

Bill C‑59 proposes a number of amendments to the Competition Act.

One of the amendments proposes to provide a form of entitlement to a remedy by allowing the Competition Tribunal to require that a business supply a means of diagnosis or repair for a product, if the means can be readily supplied.

Option consommateurs is doubtful that these amendments will be sufficiently robust to enable consumers to repair their defective devices.

Some devices require specialized tools or have components that are difficult to access. The effect of the design of the devices might therefore be to exempt the businesses from these new obligations because of the difficulty of supplying a means of diagnosis or repair. We believe that the requirement that the means of diagnosis or repair "can be readily supplied" should be removed.

The cost of repairs can also be very high. This prohibitive cost sometimes makes purchasing a new device more attractive than repairing it. The proposed amendments do not allow for counteracting this situation.

In our brief, we also propose certain additional measures. In particular, the Competition Tribunal should be able to make monetary awards in private applications dealing with deceptive marketing practices. The current amendments preclude that possibility, although they would allow it for private applications based on other violations of the act.

As well, the greenwashing provisions should be amended to cover general representations by a business relating to its environmental impact. The bill only prohibits representations relating to a product.

It will be our pleasure to answer your questions.

Thank you for your attention.

[The Chair, Liberal, Peter Fonseca]

Merci. We are going right now to members' questions.

I am looking at the time, members and witnesses, and again, we did get backed up early this morning with some of our earlier panels, so we are just going to have one round and each party will have approximately seven minutes to ask questions. If you want to share some of your time, you're free to share some of your time amongst members.

We will start with MP Lawrence.

[Philip Lawrence, Conservative, Northumberland—Peterborough South, ON]

Thank you very much.

This was a great panel. We've had a bunch of great panels, Mr. Chair, but this may be the best of them so far.

I'll start with Mayor Cleveland from the great town of Cobourg.

Of course, we've heard testimony over the last year and a half or two years in this finance committee about the challenges of housing, opioid abuse and food bank usage being at over two million Canadians. I've seen it myself when out in the community. Folks who would ordinarily describe themselves as middle class are using food banks. You've already talked a little bit about that in your opening, and I was wondering if you might be willing to expand a bit more on that.