Evidence of meeting #139 for Finance in the 44th Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was dentists.

A recording is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Paul Allison  As an Individual
Daniel Kelly  President and Chief Executive Officer, Canadian Federation of Independent Business
Amrinderbir Singh  President, Canadian Association of Public Health Dentistry
Carl Laberge  President-Chief Executive Officer, Saguenay Port Authority
Ian Lee  Associate Professor, Sprott School of Business, Carleton University, As an Individual
Keith Da Silva  Past President, Canadian Association of Public Health Dentistry

3:35 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Peter Fonseca

I call this meeting to order.

Welcome to meeting number 139 of the House of Commons Standing Committee on Finance. Pursuant to the order of reference of Monday, March 18, 2024, and the motion adopted on Monday, December 11, 2023, the committee is meeting to discuss Bill C-59, an act to implement certain provisions of the fall economic statement tabled in Parliament on November 21, 2023, and certain provisions of the budget tabled in Parliament on March 28, 2023.

Today's meeting is taking place in a hybrid format pursuant to Standing Order 15.1. Members are attending in person in the room and remotely using the Zoom application.

I would like to make a few comments for the benefit of members and witnesses.

Although this room is equipped with a powerful audio system, feedback events can occur. These can be extremely harmful to the interpreters and can cause serious injuries. The most common cause of sound feedback is an earpiece worn too close to the microphone. We therefore ask all participants to exercise a high degree of caution when handling the earpieces, especially when your microphone or your neighbour's microphone is turned on. In order to prevent incidents and safeguard the hearing health of our interpreters, I invite participants to ensure that they speak into the microphone into which their headset is plugged and to avoid manipulating the earbuds by placing them on the table away from the microphone when they are not in use.

I remind everyone that all comments should be addressed through the chair. For members in the room, if you wish to speak, please raise your hand. For members on Zoom, please use the “raise hand” function. The clerk and I will manage the speaking order as best we can. We appreciate your patience and understanding in this regard.

All virtual witnesses have been tested. Everybody is ready to go.

With us today we have Dr. Paul Allison, who is from McGill in Montreal. He will be with us to answer questions.

From the Canadian Federation of Independent Business, we have the president and chief executive officer, Mr. Daniel Kelly, via video conference.

Welcome.

We are going to start with Dr. Paul Allison for his five-minute opening statement.

3:35 p.m.

Dr. Paul Allison As an Individual

Thank you very much.

My name is Paul Allison. I'm a professor at the Faculty of Dental Medicine and Oral Health Sciences at McGill University. Thank you very much for the invitation to present to this committee and to respond to your questions on the important topic of oral health and the introduction of the Canadian dental care plan.

Why is this issue so important? Dental decay is the most common non-communicable disease in the world. It is caused by sugar, and it's completely preventable. It results in pain, infection and thousands of people visiting hospital emergency rooms every year and taking time off work and time off school. It is the most common reason that young children in Canada need to have general anaesthetic.

As with many diseases, the poorest and most marginalized Canadians have much more dental decay than wealthier Canadians. At the same time, the poorest and most marginalized Canadians often have no dental insurance and cannot afford dental care.

This is why the CDCP is so important. There are many Canadians with oral diseases who cannot afford oral health care even when they are in pain. My example was dental decay, but gum disease is also very common. Many Canadians have missing teeth, affecting their ability to eat, to smile, to socialize and to work. On top of this, many seniors in long-term care centres who are unable to clean their mouths are at risk of catching pneumonia and dying because of accumulated dirt in their mouths. Also, rates of cancer of the mouth and throat are increasing in Canada.

Oral health is health. Oral health care is health care. It is very important that we put the mouth back in the body and reverse this historical anachronism. The CDCP is an excellent first step in this direction.

Among OECD countries, Canada has nearly the lowest level of publicly funded dental care, even lower than our neighbours to the south. The WHO recently published its global oral health action plan, stating, among other things, that countries should “integrate oral health care” in universal health care. Canada is now moving in that direction.

How can the CDCP help Canadians? It means that the poorest and most marginalized Canadians can obtain a good range of oral health care. It means that young kids can obtain timely care to prevent dental decay and not be subject to general anaesthetic. It means that seniors living in long-term care centres can be more easily visited by an oral health professional to have their mouths cleaned. It means that people at risk of mouth and throat cancer can be seen more regularly by health professionals who are experts in caring for the mouth so they can be diagnosed and treated earlier.

However, there are limits to the CDCP. While cost is the largest barrier to dental care, it is not the only one. The CDCP is an excellent first step in addressing cost, but it does not deal with other barriers. For instance, many seniors living in long-term care centres have limited mobility, and providing dental clinics and/or mobile dental care in those centres is important.

People with a broad range of disabilities have difficulty accessing dental care services that can accommodate their wheelchair, their hearing problem, their communication problem or their multiple other health issues, making their dental care complex. Also, many people live in rural and remote areas with no dental services and need both mobile dental care and teledentistry services, and care integrated with the other health services they receive.

Oral diseases have the same causes and occur in the same people who have a range of other chronic diseases, such as diabetes, heart disease, asthma, arthritis, cancer and dementia. These people often access community health centres for a range of health and social services. Dental care needs to be integrated in these community centres on a large scale.

An unfortunate unintended consequence of the CDCP has to do with university and college clinics, where dentists, dental hygienists and denturists are trained. They used to be primary sites for dental care for people who had problems accessing dental care, but the CDCP will mean that many of them will be able to access that care more quickly in private offices. The CDCP is inadvertently depriving future oral health care professionals of essential training opportunities. This issue needs to be urgently addressed.

What needs to be done to address the non-cost barriers?

We need to better integrate dental care with health care in community health centres, long-term care settings and hospitals. We need to better train oral professionals to care for people with more complex oral health care needs and to provide a broader range of services using modern technology in a broader range of settings.

We need to recognize that caring for a person with, for instance, Alzheimer's disease is more complicated and takes more time than does caring for a healthy adult. Alternative, additional compensation models for the professionals providing those services need to be developed.

We need to use the data that Statistics Canada is collecting to evaluate the new CDCP services so we can adjust them as needed. We also need to better integrate the university and college dental training programs into CDCP-related activities so they can train personnel appropriately in a range of settings and develop tests and evaluate programs to address the non-financial barriers to dental care that I have outlined.

Thank you very much.

3:40 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Peter Fonseca

Thank you, Dr. Allison. There will be a lot of time for members' questions.

Now we're going to hear from the Canadian Federation of Independent Business.

Mr. Kelly, go ahead, please.

3:40 p.m.

Daniel Kelly President and Chief Executive Officer, Canadian Federation of Independent Business

Thank you so much, Chair.

It is good to be with you all. I am coming to you from Calgary today.

I was in Ottawa earlier this week, so budgets are fresh on my mind. I was there to review the provisions of the 2024 budget. It's been a busy week for you and for me on that front.

Small and medium-sized businesses that are members of the Canadian Federation of Independent Business remain at this moment very fragile. There are lots of concerns, lots of worries about the months ahead. Many businesses have been hanging on by a thread over the last several months, and sadly it would take very little to push them over.

I think we should all pay very close attention to what's happening with respect to both business closures and business start-ups right now. We have a huge number of business closures, up dramatically from previous years, and we have had, over several months, for the first time in recorded history, more businesses closing than businesses opening. That is a very worrisome trend across Canada.

In recent days, some of our data at CFIB has shown a little glimmer of hope on the horizon. The potential of lower interest rates may provide some help to small and medium-sized companies. However, we also have to put that in the context of what's happened over the course of the past few months considering there have been four federal tax increases since January 1—an increase in Canada pension plan premiums, an increase in employment insurance premiums, a significant increase in the carbon tax on April 1 and a more modest increase, but an increase nonetheless, on liquor taxes across Canada.

With respect to the substance of the piece of legislation, Bill C-59, there are three big categories we've paid attention to. One of them is intergenerational business transfers. Another is employee ownership trusts, and the third is amendments to the Competition Act. On all three of these files, the legislation does, I think, move the ball forward.

We are pleased that the legislative changes being proposed for the intergenerational business transfers don't seem to dramatically veer from the intent of the private member's bill that was adopted by the House of Commons, so that is a good thing. However, we do worry that there may be a lot of administrative procedures gumming up the works. Some tax experts have told us that there are going to be 12 different tests to determine the legitimacy of an intergenerational business transfer. I worry about the red tape and paperwork we are creating through that process, recognizing that we want to make sure that these are valid transfers nonetheless.

On employee ownership trusts, there has been some positive momentum, in both the subject of Bill C-59 and this week's budget. We are particularly encouraged by the allocation of a capital gains exemption of up to $10 million with respect to transferring a business. That's not in this legislation, but I imagine it will be in the implementation of the current budget, and that is good news. We think this is a good pathway for small and medium-sized firms and we are pleased to see this moving forward.

Also, there are some good amendments to the Competition Act. Canada has fairly weak competition laws, generally speaking. Small firms really do need strong competition law to prevent the creation of monopolies and oligopolies, and we support some of the amendments that have been proposed.

I'll leave it there. I suspect I may get a question or two about the 2024 budget. I am happy to take any of your questions on this or on the previous one.

3:45 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Peter Fonseca

Thank you, Mr. Kelly. I'm sure there will be many questions.

We are moving to members' questions right now. It will be six minutes for each party in this first round.

I understand that MP Ellis will be asking questions for the first six minutes.

MP Ellis.

3:45 p.m.

Conservative

Stephen Ellis Conservative Cumberland—Colchester, NS

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.

Thank you to the witnesses for being here.

Dr. Allison, you talked a bit about the Canadian dental care program, which is going to cost Canadians billions of dollars, of course. How many Canadian children currently have access to provincial and/or territorial dental plans?

3:45 p.m.

As an Individual

Dr. Paul Allison

It varies enormously across the provinces and territories. For instance, in Quebec, where I work, children up to their 10th birthday have access to dental care, but across the other provinces, it varies a lot.

3:45 p.m.

Conservative

Stephen Ellis Conservative Cumberland—Colchester, NS

It's P.E.I., Nunavut, Newfoundland, Quebec, Nova Scotia and the Yukon that have children's programs.

That being said, Dr. Allison, do you know how many dentists have signed up for the Canadian dental care program at the current time?

3:45 p.m.

As an Individual

Dr. Paul Allison

I don't know. I read in the media that it's approximately 5,000.

3:45 p.m.

Conservative

Stephen Ellis Conservative Cumberland—Colchester, NS

Specifically with regard to Nova Scotia, New Brunswick and P.E.I., Dr. Allison, do you know those numbers at all?

3:45 p.m.

As an Individual

3:45 p.m.

Conservative

Stephen Ellis Conservative Cumberland—Colchester, NS

That would be eight out of 1,170 dentists.

Were you aware of that number, sir?

3:45 p.m.

As an Individual

3:45 p.m.

Conservative

Stephen Ellis Conservative Cumberland—Colchester, NS

Dr. Allison, are you still a practising dentist?

3:45 p.m.

As an Individual

3:45 p.m.

Conservative

Stephen Ellis Conservative Cumberland—Colchester, NS

Could you give any thoughts, in spite of the fact that you're not practising, as to why a dentist might not sign up for the Canadian dental care program?

3:45 p.m.

As an Individual

Dr. Paul Allison

Well, I believe that it's a very large change in the dental care practice in the country. Dentists, dental hygienists and denturists have been used to dealing with private dental insurance primarily, and now they'll have to deal with the federal government through this. That's a very large change in the way they're dealing with things. I think anytime there's a significant change, any group of people will be cautious. They want to know the details. It's quite understandable that they're hesitant to sign up until they understand the details of the program fully.

3:45 p.m.

Conservative

Stephen Ellis Conservative Cumberland—Colchester, NS

Thank you very much for that.

Dr. Allison, do you know how many dentists were consulted before the Canadian dental care program was created?

3:45 p.m.

As an Individual

3:45 p.m.

Conservative

Stephen Ellis Conservative Cumberland—Colchester, NS

That would be a zero, actually.

You talked a bit about a new program, but doesn't this new idea create a different relationship between the dentist and the patient? Primarily, we would expect the relationship to be between a primary health provider, like a dentist, and the patient. My understanding from speaking to all the dental associations across this country is that now that relationship would be between the dentist and the federal government.

Do you understand that to be true as well, sir?

3:50 p.m.

As an Individual

Dr. Paul Allison

I don't understand that to be true. As far as I can understand, there's always a three-way relationship. There's the patient, the dentist or dental provider, and the insurance company, assuming there's an insurance company involved. Now, instead of the insurance company, there will be a government involved.

There is sometimes a third party involved in the situation.

3:50 p.m.

Conservative

Stephen Ellis Conservative Cumberland—Colchester, NS

Dr. Allison, have you talked to any dentists about this program?

3:50 p.m.

As an Individual

3:50 p.m.

Conservative

Stephen Ellis Conservative Cumberland—Colchester, NS

Have you talked to them specifically about this change in relationship? Have any of them brought up that concern to you? They've brought it up to me.

3:50 p.m.

As an Individual

Dr. Paul Allison

They have not brought that concern to me, no.