Evidence of meeting #23 for Finance in the 45th Parliament, 1st session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was answer.

A video is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

Members speaking

Before the committee

François-Philippe Champagne  Minister of Finance and National Revenue
Leswick  Deputy Minister, Department of Finance

The Chair Liberal Karina Gould

Colleagues, I call this meeting to order.

Welcome to meeting 23 of the House of Commons Standing Committee on Finance. Pursuant to the order of reference of Wednesday, December 10, 2025, and the motion adopted on Wednesday, December 10, 2025, the committee shall resume consideration of Bill C-15, an act to implement certain provisions of the budget tabled in Parliament on November 4, 2025.

I would like to welcome back the Minister of Finance. He is joined by his deputy minister, Nick Leswick.

Minister, we're so delighted to have you for so long this week.

With that, you have 10 minutes for your opening remarks. Please proceed.

10:30 a.m.

Saint-Maurice—Champlain Québec

Liberal

François-Philippe Champagne LiberalMinister of Finance and National Revenue

Thank you, Madam Chair.

I'm delighted to be with you this morning as well.

I also want to thank my colleagues. This is a unique time in Canadian history, and we really need to work together.

I was encouraged by former prime minister Harper's timely comments about the fact that we need to work together. This is a time to come together and collaborate. I hope that will inspire the members of the committee.

I would like to begin, Madam Chair, by thanking the members of the committee for their important work in examining Bill C-15, the budget implementation act. I think Canadians expect nothing less than a lot of hard work from members of the committee to make sure that we can do that swiftly.

As you know, last fall I tabled budget 2025 in the House of Commons. It was really a plan, a generational investment in our collective future. As we all know, Bill C-15 serves as the primary legislative vehicle to enact budget 2025. Certainly, I'm pleased to join you today to provide a brief overview of some of the key measures included. I'm joined by Nick Leswick, my deputy minister, who has been serving our nation for a long time. He has been at the Bank of Canada.

I would say that Canadians are well served by public servants like you, sir, who have dedicated their professional careers to serving Canadians.

Let me first outline the profound global and economic restructuring taking place. We can't talk about budget 2025 without talking about the macroeconomic environment and the level of uncertainty we're facing. Canadians have seen that we're facing economic headwinds and that these changes are causing a lot of concerns for Canadian industries and workers. They've seen in budget 2025 our ambitious plan to harness Canada's many strengths and build the strongest economy in the G7. I would remind colleagues that I come from Shawinigan. I think there's an old fox there who said that no nation can be more optimistic than its leaders. I really call on each and every one of us to be optimistic and to join in building the strongest economy in the G7.

Madam Chair, you will have seen, in your privileged position as chair of the finance committee, that the world is undergoing a series of fundamental shifts at, I often say, the speed, scope and scale of change. It's geopolitics. It's geo-economics. It's supply chains. It's technology: AI, quantum and cyber. Some would go back to 1945, and some would go back to the fall of the Berlin Wall, but this is something that is sure: This is not a transition. As the Prime Minister said recently, we're facing more of a rupture. Therefore, if there was a time for us to work together, I think the moment calls for each and every one of us to contribute to this nation at a very historic moment in our nation's history.

People will have seen that the rules-based international order and the trading system that powered Canada's prosperity for decades are being reshaped, threatening our sovereignty, our prosperity and our values. We don't have to look very far. We've seen the number of changes south of our border. Therefore, we need to adapt. We are Canadian. We are resilient. I believe in Canada. I think you believe in Canada too. Long-standing supply chains and trade relationships that once ensured stable growth, good jobs and affordable products are being disrupted.

Taken together, dear colleagues, this can all sound overwhelming for a lot of families, workers and farmers across our nation. Nothing, however, is too much for Canadians. We have seen hardship before. When we come together, nothing can stop us. Instead, I would say that Canadians are embracing our vision of a strong and resilient Canada. There's nothing political about that. This is about nation building, protecting our sovereignty and empowering our citizens. Canada is purpose-built to meet this moment. The challenges are great—I will be honest with you and with Canadians—but I would say that the opportunities for Canada are even greater. That's why I urge each and every one of you to study and pass this bill as swiftly as possible.

Canada is in a good place, because Canada is what the world wants. We are an energy superpower in both conventional and clean energy. We hold vast reserves of the critical minerals that will be essential for the economy of the 21st century. We have the most educated workforce. I would say that Canada is also a big magnet for talent from across the world.

We have a world-class innovation ecosystem. Colleagues will have seen a number of measures to really boost our productivity and innovation. We are global leaders in industry ranging from agriculture to AI and from cars to quantum computing. We have strong and diversified trading relationships that span the globe. In fact, I always remind people internationally that Canada is the only G7 country with a free trade agreement with all the other G7 nations. We also have fiscal capacity and the ability to unlock generational investments, as has been recently highlighted by the International Monetary Fund.

Budget 2025, and by extension Bill C-15, is our plan to leverage these enviable assets, shape our economy and build our nation's future.

In partnership with provinces, territories, municipalities, indigenous communities, Canadian workers, Canadian innovators and the private sector, we will help unlock $1 trillion in total investments in this country. That means more companies investing in Canada, more good-paying jobs for Canadian workers across our nation and more money in people's pockets. It means that at the end of the day we choose confidence over resignation. We choose to empower Canadians to build this country together and to protect what we hold dear as Canadians.

Let's talk about building a stronger Canadian economy.

To meet the challenges of our time, budget 2025 offers a historic investment strategy that protects and transforms our industries, strengthens our economy and empowers Canadians.

Our government is committed to delivering major projects for Canadians at a scale and speed not seen in generations.

From housing, infrastructure and defence to productivity and competitiveness, our plan puts Canadian workers front and centre and the national interest at the core of every decision we make.

This plan also defends our sovereignty through historic investments in national defence, security and the capabilities we need to protect Canadians in an increasingly fractured world.

To supercharge investment in research and development, for example, Bill C-15 will enhance something that is really well known by small and medium-sized businesses not only in Canada but across the world, what we call the scientific research and experimental development tax incentive. Bill C-15 will enhance what we call SR and ED by increasing the enhanced credit expenditure limit from $3 million to $6 million, extending eligibility for enhanced credit to small and medium-sized Canadian public corporations, and restoring capital expenditures as eligible costs.

This will be paired with a productivity superdeduction, which will reduce Canada's marginal effective tax rate, what we call the METR in finance jargon, by more than two percentage points.

What people in this committee need to realize is that as a result, Canada will have the lowest marginal effective tax rate in the G7 countries, with a rate well below the OECD average. We are more than ever open for business.

This means that businesses can invest and scale more easily and that Canada will remain an attractive destination for investment.

These are obviously not short-term measures. However, we know that being a leader in the low-carbon economy is also key to long-term competitiveness and growth to secure the success and prosperity of the Canadian economy.

The climate competitiveness strategy proposed in our 2025 budget will stimulate the investments needed for Canadian businesses to be competitive and prosperous in a net-zero future.

Madam Chair, I have to be a bit faster, as there's a lot to be said, as you might expect.

We're also going to make the tax system fairer. You will have seen that there are a number of measures in our budget not only to make sure that everyone pays their fair share, but also to take into account feedback and comments from this committee when it comes to making sure Canadians with disabilities receive the support they need.

You also will have seen the introduction of a temporary personal support workers tax credit to provide up to $1,100 per year to eligible workers, and you will have seen a number of measures that are going to allow us to build this economy.

Madam Chair, in closing, I know that time is precious for the committee, but I will say that you will have also seen a comprehensive expenditure review. We need to spend less and invest more.

I'll conclude by saying that in these uncertain times, Madam Chair, Canadians expect nothing less from us.

We will deliver, because we all believe in Canada. As Canadians, there's nothing we can't do, so let's seize the moment, let's be ambitious and let's build Canada strong together.

Thank you.

The Chair Liberal Karina Gould

That's great. Thank you very much, Minister.

I will now turn to Mr. Hallan for six minutes.

10:40 a.m.

Conservative

Jasraj Singh Hallan Conservative Calgary East, AB

Thank you, Chair.

Minister, in division 5 of part 5 of the bill, your government is once again asking for unprecedented powers to exempt any entity or company from any law or regulation in Canada, with the exception of the Criminal Code.

Would this include the Conflict of Interest Act? Answer yes or no.

François-Philippe Champagne Liberal Saint-Maurice—Champlain, QC

I think you're referring to something called a regulatory sandbox. I want to bring that to the committee's attention. You know—

10:40 a.m.

Conservative

Jasraj Singh Hallan Conservative Calgary East, AB

Minister, I'm not asking what it is or why it's there.

This is very concerning. If this is passed, would it exempt any entity, company or individual, determined by the Prime Minister or any minister, from the Conflict of Interest Act in Canada? Answer yes or no.

François-Philippe Champagne Liberal Saint-Maurice—Champlain, QC

Madam Chair, I was just trying to provide background.

Canada is catching up, I would say, with other OECD countries and the G7—

10:40 a.m.

Conservative

Jasraj Singh Hallan Conservative Calgary East, AB

This is a very concerning fact that's inside the budget.

After these powers are granted to a prime minister or minister, would they be allowed to exempt a company or an individual from Canada's laws and the Conflict of Interest Act? Answer yes or no.

François-Philippe Champagne Liberal Saint-Maurice—Champlain, QC

I was just trying to say, Madam Chair, that regulatory sandboxes are a tool that has been requested—

10:40 a.m.

Conservative

Jasraj Singh Hallan Conservative Calgary East, AB

Would it include exempting—

Peter Fragiskatos Liberal London Centre, ON

I have a point of order, Madam Chair.

It will be a very long meeting if we don't hear the answers. The question is being asked, but we're not able to hear the answers.

The Chair Liberal Karina Gould

Thank you, Mr. Fragiskatos. That's not a point of order.

Mr. Hallan.

10:40 a.m.

Conservative

Jasraj Singh Hallan Conservative Calgary East, AB

The minister refuses to answer because this would give unprecedented powers, once again, to the government. Canadians are worried. In fact, even the Toronto Star, a non-Conservative friendly paper, has written about this. That's how concerning this is.

Would passing this give the Prime Minister or any minister in the government the ability to exempt any company or individual from the Conflict of Interest Act? Answer yes or no.

François-Philippe Champagne Liberal Saint-Maurice—Champlain, QC

Madam Chair, I know some colleagues are more interested in the questions than the answers, but let me try to inform Canadians.

Regulatory sandboxes are tools that are very well used by OECD countries and the G7. I would say, Madam Chair, that Canada is catching up. If you look at—

10:40 a.m.

Conservative

Jasraj Singh Hallan Conservative Calgary East, AB

Does it include the Conflict of Interest Act being exempt? Answer yes or no.

François-Philippe Champagne Liberal Saint-Maurice—Champlain, QC

Madam Chair, as I was saying, Canada is catching up, and the—

10:40 a.m.

Conservative

Jasraj Singh Hallan Conservative Calgary East, AB

Minister, I'll take that as a yes, and that's very concerning.

I'm going to give you an example. Again, I'm just asking if you can give me a yes or a no.

If a company like Brookfield has been looking to get a contract from either the Prime Minister or any minister in the government, would it be exempt from the Conflict of Interest Act—knowing very well the Prime Minister's declared conflict of interest—after this passes? Answer yes or no.

François-Philippe Champagne Liberal Saint-Maurice—Champlain, QC

Madam Chair, I'm sure the business people who are watching this morning are a bit surprised. Everyone in this country thought the Conservatives would be business friendly. This is a request from the business sector and Canadian innovators for Canada to catch up with other G7 countries—

10:45 a.m.

Conservative

Jasraj Singh Hallan Conservative Calgary East, AB

We're definitely business friendly, but the rule of law—

The Chair Liberal Karina Gould

Mr. Fragiskatos has a point of order.

Peter Fragiskatos Liberal London Centre, ON

On a point of order, again, we want to hear the answer. The question's been asked. There's been no interruption. We want to hear an answer. Let's hear it.

10:45 a.m.

Conservative

Pat Kelly Conservative Calgary Crowfoot, AB

On the same point of order, we had this minister earlier this week, when I asked a series of questions that he did not.... He burned my time—

The Chair Liberal Karina Gould

Thank you, Mr. Kelly.

This is turning into debate. Neither of those is a point of order.

We're going to continue with Mr. Hallan. Thank you.

10:45 a.m.

Conservative

Jasraj Singh Hallan Conservative Calgary East, AB

Minister, I will take your non-answer to mean that the Conflict of Interest Act would not apply to a company or an individual if any prime minister or minister grants them those powers and a contract under the government. That is concerning, because it means that a company like Brookfield, which obviously has a conflict of interest with the Prime Minister, could be awarded a contract and be given Canadian money without having the Conflict of Interest Act apply to it with these powers.

I have another question for you. Would this division and this part also give the power to exempt any company or person from the government from the Investment Canada Act? Answer yes or no.

François-Philippe Champagne Liberal Saint-Maurice—Champlain, QC

Madam Chair, let me try to explain to Canadians that what we call regulatory sandboxes are subject to a number of safeguards. Let me list a number of them—