Fisheries Committee on Feb. 20th, 2007

[Commr George Da Pont]

That's a very good point. It obviously has to be part of our priorities.

It's encompassed in the general one I had set out, about continuing with our modernization initiatives. I just summarized and rolled things together because when I was before the committee in September, I elaborated a little bit more on what was encompassed there. Essentially, as you say, it is moving to an effective life cycle management system.

The other major one was our aids to navigation for the 21st century initiative, which also builds on some of the recommendations of the Auditor General.

[Larry Murray]

Could I piggyback onto that?

I would indicate that in terms of this business plan, we certainly have every intention of sharing it with the Auditor General. It will also become part of our ongoing input to the Treasury Board in terms of the management accountability framework.

I'd like to underline as well the absolute essentiality of getting there in terms of the Auditor General's recommendations around maintenance management systems. In other words, it's one thing when we're operating in 1984 trawlers, but as we move forward with this fleet replacement program, as the navy did, it will be absolutely essential that the recommendations she and her staff have made are actually functioning in order to make the system work.

So notwithstanding my very strong support for the men and women of the Canadian Coast Guard, who have done a wonderful job—which is why I might take a little bit of an exception to decisions about at-risk pay and that kind of stuff—there is no question that your point is bang-on and that we must ensure that the recommendations the Auditor General has made are implemented in terms of a comprehensive maintenance management system for configuration management as this new fleet rolls out. It's absolutely essential operationally, as well as from a taxpayers' perspective.

[Blaine Calkins, Conservative, Wetaskiwin, AB]

I'm glad to hear that. It's encouraging.

If these five categories are broad and all-encompassing, are they so broad and all-encompassing that you're basically saying we're going to continue with the status quo?

[Commr George Da Pont]

Absolutely not, because the last thing I want to do is repeat the mistake that has been flagged and that we've made so far in trying to do too much all at the same time, while at the end of the day, despite a fair bit of effort, we haven't gotten anything finally completed.

These priorities are multi-year priorities. They will take us a number of years to fully implement. What I'd like to do in the business plan is identify very specifically what exactly is going to be done that particular year in terms of that priority or initiative. In other words, in doable bits, I want to make sure I allocate the resources that are actually needed to do that effectively, and that we establish very clearly who has the accountability for carrying through on it. I will tie those results to our performance agreement system and obviously monitor and report on that.

There is no intent to try to do a whole bunch of things all at the same time under those five priorities. They're frameworks. We will identify very specifically what they are.

The reason I want to use my business plan to do that is that I don't want to have a plan to respond to the Auditor General, a plan for our operations, and a plan for things the Auditor General didn't touch on. I want to have one integrated plan. To me, that's the only way to make sure I have clear accountability and that it's doable.

[Larry Murray]

We're certainly going to share it with everybody else. The minister obviously is interested, but there is absolutely no reason why we can't share it with this committee on an ongoing basis. You have a right to that.

[Blaine Calkins, Conservative, Wetaskiwin, AB]

Keeping on in this vein, then, the ship contracts have already been awarded, right? When is the next ship coming?

[Commr George Da Pont]

The contracts haven't been awarded for the mid-shore patrol vessels. We are expecting the proposals to come in sometime in March, and then they will be assessed. I would hope the contract will be awarded certainly by the early fall, depending on how fast we can do the analysis and get it to the Treasury Board.

For the two offshore vessels, the actual proposals are coming in early next year, and I would hope to have the contracts in place certainly by March or April of next year.

So the vessels have not yet gone to the contracting stage.

[Blaine Calkins, Conservative, Wetaskiwin, AB]

In the procurement process, then, as part of streamlining and making the organization more efficient, are you looking for a total package procurement, in which somebody's going to build the ships for you and it will be the same company maintaining them? What's the direction of the organization on the procurement end?

[Commr George Da Pont]

Right now the direction is obviously to build them, and according to our shipbuilding policy, obviously they'll be built in Canada. As part of the procurement process, we are building in getting all of the manuals and the technical drawings that are required for effective life cycle management in a form that we will be able to feed into an electronic information management system, in order to ensure availability and to give us an effective way of keeping them up to date.

In terms of what we have now, this is sporadic. Given the age of the vessels, some of the manuals are outdated. Given the fact that we acquired them in different ways, a number of our vessels we didn't acquire ourselves. We acquired them after they had been in service for a period of time, and we then refurbished them.

So there are a lot of issues that go into why we have had some maintenance issues, but we are certainly building all that into the procurement process. We would still expect to do the actual maintenance part with our own people.

[Blaine Calkins, Conservative, Wetaskiwin, AB]

So in order for an integrated management system to work if it's going to be difficult to have five different regional organizations operating semi-independently from each other, the next part of the equation for me is making sure we identify those things that are common at the national level, getting them organized into a national hierarchy. How do you see that working with this material management?

[Commr George Da Pont]

With the material management, the key thing is that we have to have three or four things come into place. We actually put the details on those things into the status report that we shared with you.

First of all, obviously we need a common organizational structure and common job descriptions across the country. We've made very good progress on that. It's not 100% in place, but as you can see from the status report we distributed, we're well along with that.

Secondly, you need the clear, overarching framework policies that are necessary for life cycle management. We have most of the framework policies in place or close to being finalized.

Thirdly, you then need the specific ones that the people in the field can actually follow. We have a good start there, but we have a fair bit of work to do.

Finally, you need an effective information management system that you can readily keep up to date. We have a system, but it's not being utilized effectively. We've had some successes with it, but we still have some cultural changes to make. We have a good framework for how to do that, and we are reasonably well along in most aspects, but clearly there's work to be done.

The one thing I would say again on this is that we have made very significant progress in the last eight or ten years. Prior to that, some of the vessels didn't even have a paper-based system for maintenance. Where we are is not where we need to be, and I fully accept that. At the same time, we've come an awfully long way in the last six or seven years. I hope that doesn't get lost in the analysis.

[The Chair, Conservative, Gerald Keddy]

Thank you, Mr. Da Pont.

Mr. Cuzner is next.

[Rodger Cuzner, Liberal, Cape Breton—Canso, NS]

Thank you very much.

I'd also like to welcome our new member on the committee from this side of the committee room.

Ms. Fraser, while reading through the statements and listening to the statements, I noticed that Mr. Murray commented twice that “considerable” progress has been made on initiatives and recommendations that have come forward, and Mr. Da Pont as well said that it has been “significant”. So we have “significant” and “considerable”, yet you don't mention anything in your comments. Are your views at odds with the department? You might want to comment on that.

[Sheila Fraser]

Mr. Chair, we recognize that the coast guard did put effort into trying to address the recommendations we made in 2000 and 2002; it's not that they did nothing about this. Our conclusion is that we would have expected some of the issues to be resolved by now. As we always say, we hope we agree on facts; we can disagree on conclusions.

[Rodger Cuzner, Liberal, Cape Breton—Canso, NS]

Through both reports you identified an already stretched management team, and references were made to just how strained the coast guard is with resources.

When we see the government looking at trying to further exert sovereignty in the north, we understand fully that a major piece of that is going to be military, but without question the coast guard would play a significant role. Do we put further strains on the coast guard in embarking on this if we do not support it with a substantial allocation of cash? Are there further strains placed on the coast guard?

[Sheila Fraser]

The deputy and the commissioner are obviously better able to respond, but I would certainly say that if you ask an organization to do more, they have to stop doing something else if they have the same level of resources.

[Rodger Cuzner, Liberal, Cape Breton—Canso, NS]

What you say throughout your report is that there's a cash crunch on within the department, and where the concerns have been raised is where they haven't been able to prioritize.

[Sheila Fraser]

Some could read this as saying there's a cash crunch. I think we also note in a number of examples that for many years we've been talking about shore-based support; we believe there are efficiencies in that. When you look at some of the case studies, the repairs were much more expensive than they should have been.

There was also spending that, quite frankly, could have been better, and if there had been better maintenance procedures and so on, the costs maybe wouldn't have been what they were. So it's very hard to say that it's only a question of needing more money. It really comes back, again, to setting the priorities, determining what has to be done, and taking into account that limited funding has been given to this organization.

[Rodger Cuzner, Liberal, Cape Breton—Canso, NS]

Could I get Mr. Da Pont or Mr. Murray just to—?

[Commr George Da Pont]

I obviously don't disagree with Madam Fraser's observations, but I would mention several points.

First of all, I would agree—and this is certainly my approach and the arguments I make—that if I do not have the resources within my existing budget, I cannot take on new responsibilities and an expanded mandate without the funding that would go with it, or without being given the ability to shed some of the shore infrastructure that the Auditor General has talked about, such as staffed lighthouses or some of the large number of shore facilities.

All of those are very contentious, not from the operational perspective of the coast guard, but for legitimate heritage considerations, for legitimate issues about the impact on local jobs in small communities. I understand that fully, but what I can't do is effectively be unable to realize some of those improvements and rationalizations and at the same time be expected to take on more without funding.

There is opportunity within our budget to use some of our budget much more effectively—and that's a good example—and certainly there are improvements in our management practices that we will try to make, but I think in essence that's the situation: in the absence of being able to readily deal with shore-based infrastructure, I don't see much opportunity to expand the mandate within the current envelope.

[The Chair, Conservative, Gerald Keddy]

Sorry, Mr. Cuzner, we're out of time. Time flies when you're having fun, right?

Monsieur Blais.

[Raynald Blais, Bloc, Gaspésie—Îles-de-la-Madeleine, QC]

Thank you very much.

Twenty minutes ago, I tried to raise the safety issue again because I was not sure whether Mr. Da Pont had really understood my question. In my opinion, safety involves navigational aid as well as assistance to ships in distress. These things are within the coast guard's mandate. I understand that there are also things like national security that come into play, but I would like to know whether the problems that we identified and that the Auditor General raised in her audit have anything to do with safety in the context of navigational aid and aid to ships in distress.

[Commr George Da Pont]

We worked very hard at maintaining a search and rescue program. Our track record is certainly one of the best in the world. A great deal of emphasis is given to the maintenance of key infrastructure in these sectors, but we must always make the best possible investments within the available budget. I strongly believe that we can maintain an excellent standard of service, just as we did in the past. Certainly, as I said in September, there are problems in some parts of Canada. Some regions are requesting more services. We try to satisfy such requests, but our approach is based on identifying risks and on the need to maintain all the key services in which we invest most of our resources.

[Raynald Blais, Bloc, Gaspésie—Îles-de-la-Madeleine, QC]

Ms. Fraser, search and rescue and aid to ships in distress were not necessarily included in your mandate.

Does your audit show some kind of cause and effect? In situations where maintenance is a major financial problem, is efficiency affected in any way? If that is the case, does it have any impact on the search and rescue mandate?

[Sheila Fraser]

Mr. Chairman, our report does not show any problems with that. Therefore, our audit did not reach that conclusion.