Without paying a fee, the $10,000 fee.
Evidence of meeting #7 for Fisheries and Oceans in the 39th Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was heiltsuk.
Evidence of meeting #7 for Fisheries and Oceans in the 39th Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was heiltsuk.
9:45 a.m.
Conservative
9:45 a.m.
Conservative
John Cummins Conservative Delta—Richmond East, BC
After you got that, and opted out, they went and created even more quota for certain bands on the coast, for the Heiltsuk. Is that right?
9:45 a.m.
Vice-President, Spawn on Kelp Operators Association
For the first two weeks of every March in the last number of years, DFO has added quota. You can set your watch by it.
9:45 a.m.
Representative, Spawn on Kelp Operators Association
The problem with that, John, is that if some fishermen elect to go fishing--and they know what their chances are, because they know what quota is out there--they have to elect to go fishing by January 15, when their licence fees are due and payable. On January 15 they take a chance and say, “This is the quota that's going to be produced, and I'm going to take a chance and go fishing,” hoping the price will rise. Then what happens is that on February 28, DFO issues 92,000 pounds again to Heiltsuk.
This means that the numbers I used to determine what the market was were skewed. DFO didn't give me the information that this was happening when I made my decision.
It's a double-edged sword here.
9:50 a.m.
Conservative
John Cummins Conservative Delta—Richmond East, BC
Essentially, you're required to make a decision before you have the information.
9:50 a.m.
Representative, Spawn on Kelp Operators Association
Exactly. And if DFO were going to trade away spawn-on-kelp to the Heiltsuk for peace in the valley, then at least we should have been at the table to agree or disagree, or maybe negotiate on our own behalf, or at least be informed so that we know to go fishing or not to go fishing for that year. But the letter is dated February 28, and all our dues and decisions were paid by then--the ones who chose to go fishing.
9:50 a.m.
Conservative
John Cummins Conservative Delta—Richmond East, BC
I want to very quickly deal with the issue of your licence fee. You pay a $10,000 licence fee and a $5,000 monitoring fee. Do the Heiltsuk pay any fees?
9:50 a.m.
Representative, Spawn on Kelp Operators Association
No, and that's part of the problem. If the product is worth $28 a pound, $1 a pound here or there doesn't really.... It's a minor portion. But if the product is selling for $4 a pound and you already have a fee of $1 a pound going to the government and to monitoring, and Heiltsuk enters into the market without that fee, then your ability to compete has been reduced by that amount.
So no, Heiltsuk do not pay the Government of Canada a $10,000 fee per 16,000 pounds, as we do, nor do they pay for their own monitoring. We are charged with monitoring our own fishery. In other words, we have people out there to watch how we treat the fish. When we harvest, every tote is stickered. We are monitored, and we pay for our own monitoring. In the plants, where it's processed, there are people there to make sure that the product is done legally and properly.
9:50 a.m.
Conservative
The Chair Conservative Gerald Keddy
Thank you, John. You're already over three minutes, and other members have questions.
Mr. Matthews.
9:50 a.m.
Liberal
Bill Matthews Liberal Random—Burin—St. George's, NL
I have just a quick question, Mr. Chairman.
Again, gentlemen, on page 3, in the first paragraph, you talk about 2005 and about illegal acts of vandalism. You go on to say that no one was charged, that personal property was damaged, and so on.
I mean, is that a fact?
9:50 a.m.
Representative, Spawn on Kelp Operators Association
Yes. The Heiltsuk were not happy with their 240,000 pounds of quota, so they went out and, while the sac roe fishing fleet was operating in a legal and proper manner, they threw what we call “sea lion bombs”, which are small sticks of dynamite, into nets; they ran over nets with their speedboats and other boats; they threatened people with physical violence. Basically, it was a very horrible scene.
9:50 a.m.
Liberal
Bill Matthews Liberal Random—Burin—St. George's, NL
What you're telling me is that for doing that, they were rewarded.
9:50 a.m.
Representative, Spawn on Kelp Operators Association
Yes, sir.
I have here the MOU that the DFO, high up, and the Heiltsuk signed. It basically says that there will be no disruption of the roe herring fleet if you give us 92,000 pounds of roe-on-kelp.
9:50 a.m.
Liberal
Bill Matthews Liberal Random—Burin—St. George's, NL
I find this astounding. I come from the east coast, as I'm sure you know, and there are always various tensions within different fisheries, for different reasons. We have protests and demonstrations, many times organized by the fishermen's union, the FFAW. Occasionally somebody will get a bit out of hand, and there might be damage to a building or something. But my point is that when that happens, regardless of the circumstances, there are always charges laid. If found guilty, then those who did this pay.
I'm just flabbergasted, to be very honest with you, that this kind of thing can happen, that no charges be laid and someone be actually rewarded. My sense of it would be that in cases like this, there shouldn't be a reward; if anything, it should be the opposite.
It's just an observation, but I have to say to you, Mr. Chairman, in front of our witnesses and other committee members, that the fishery on the east coast is complex and one bloody tangle. I don't know if we'll ever sort it out. But I have to say that from the stories we've heard from the west coast, the situation is even worse. I didn't think it could get any worse than it is on the east coast, but I'm convinced now that it is.
I have problems understanding some of those situations and how they could get to the point they're at. To have a government department, or departments, not lay charges, and in essence reward someone....
9:55 a.m.
Representative, Spawn on Kelp Operators Association
Sir, with due respect, I think the DFO isn't the only government agency that rewards illegal demonstrations. If we refer to Caledonia, for instance...and it goes on and on, sir. But that's not for this committee--
9:55 a.m.
Liberal
Bill Matthews Liberal Random—Burin—St. George's, NL
Regardless of where it is or what the circumstance, I still have a problem understanding that. I guess my point is that I have difficulty accepting that as one citizen of this country. That's all I'll say.
9:55 a.m.
Vice-President, Spawn on Kelp Operators Association
In the 2006 MOU, number seven says:
The parties are desirous of conducting an orderly and peaceful herring spawn-on-kelp and roe fishery that respects the parties' responsibilities and interests.
Then they turn around and start giving stuff away. That's right in their deal.
9:55 a.m.
Conservative
The Chair Conservative Gerald Keddy
With the committee's discretion, I would ask for a copy of that 2006 MOU. If you could supply it, please, we'd appreciate that.
We are out of time, but I think there are some questioners who would like a last question--Monsieur Roy, Ms. Crowder, and I think Mr. Kamp.
If the committee approves, we'll finish the last round.
9:55 a.m.
Bloc
Jean-Yves Roy Bloc Haute-Gaspésie—La Mitis—Matane—Matapédia, QC
Thank you, Mr. Chairman. My question will be brief.
At the very end of your document, you ask the Department of Fisheries and Oceans if they will consider funding a draft proposal to reduce the number of permits. However, given the collapse of the industry, you stated earlier that the department did not want to buy back your permits in the past because they were too expensive. How much are they worth now? If the department were to decide to buy back your permit today, it would be much less expensive because prices have collapsed and the industry is on the verge of failing. As a result, how much is your permit worth?
9:55 a.m.
Vice-President, Spawn on Kelp Operators Association
I think what you would have to do is an evaluation of just where we're going and what is happening. That's what I think.
I don't know what the value is. It's probably not as much as everybody thinks. But in the same sense, the department is part of the reason why they have no value. What the market has to do is rebalance. The market would rebalance if they hadn't issued so much quota and used roe-on-kelp as a currency for land claims. If in 1996, when they came out with the Heiltsuk decision, they'd done a buyback program, we wouldn't be here talking about it.
9:55 a.m.
Bloc
Jean-Yves Roy Bloc Haute-Gaspésie—La Mitis—Matane—Matapédia, QC
Basically, you are recommending that we not reduce the quotas at this time. If there was a licence rationalization plan, it would of course have to be negotiated on a basis other than the current industry. Would it have to be negotiated on an annual average over the last decade or something like that?
9:55 a.m.
Representative, Spawn on Kelp Operators Association
To answer your question, the government did enter the marketplace in 1996. They went out and bought two licences from individuals and transferred them to Indian bands. The value at that time was approximately $1.8 million. Since then, they've decided not to buy any more, and just issue quota.
Yes, the price of the licence has gone down, and perhaps, at some point, it might be worth zero, but we're suggesting that the damage has occurred. We're hoping that the government will see that they created the damage, so they should be able to establish a value from previous to when the damage occurred.