Evidence of meeting #25 for Fisheries and Oceans in the 39th Parliament, 2nd Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was boats.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Donald Drew  Chair, Harbour Authority of Bay Bulls
Rom Dalton  Harbour Authority of Admirals Beach
Kevin McGrath  Harbour Authority of St. Brides
Ross Petten  Harbour Authority of Port de Grave
Dave Johnson  Harbour Authority of Old Perlican
Herb Butt  Harbour Authority of Carbonear
Warren Parsons  Harbour Authority of Harbour Grace
Pat Curran  Executive Director, Irish Loop Development Board

2:05 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Fabian Manning

I will call the meeting to order.

I would like to welcome our witnesses here, and welcome certainly the members of the media who've joined us; Mr. Gary Sooley, who has been riding with us today, from small craft harbours here in Newfoundland and Labrador; and all visitors.

I'll give our guests an idea of what we're doing. We are the Standing Committee on Fisheries and Oceans for the Parliament of Canada. We represent four political parties in the House: Conservatives, Liberals, Bloc Québécois, and the NDP....

Where is our NDP, though?

2:05 p.m.

A voice

We lost him.

2:05 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Fabian Manning

Yes. At any rate, he's here somewhere, Peter Stoffer from the NDP.

Last fall we began a study into the small craft harbours program. Basically this is a continuation of that. In Ottawa we received witnesses, including Bill Goulding here from Newfoundland and Labrador, plus several other people involved in the small craft harbours program across the country. We also heard from the national advisory of harbour authorities in Ottawa, and some other witnesses.

Basically our goal is to establish a report, present it to the House of Commons, and look for an enhancement to the small craft harbours program. That includes not only marine infrastructure, such as wharfs and so on. If, as members of harbour authorities, you think there's a need for training.... And you're volunteer-based, so if, as volunteers, you think there's something we could put in the report on ways of enhancing the harbour authority program itself, and the way you're set up, any and all things are open for discussion that have to do with harbour authorities.

The purpose of our trip, which we've started here today in Newfoundland and Labrador, is to travel around to talk to people like you, who are involved in harbour authorities, on the committees. We want to hear from you, and we also want to give an opportunity to the members of our committee to ask you some questions. We will be travelling to Prince Edward Island, Nova Scotia, New Brunswick, and we finish up in Quebec on Friday evening.

I certainly want to thank you for your appearance here today. I realize that many of you may not have gone through this process before. Don't feel in any way nervous. It's just like sitting around and having a chat with the boys--and the lady.

You'll see some people around. These are people who assist us with our work. Our analyst is François and our clerk is Julia.

We also have interpreters here. In Newfoundland and Labrador, it's very important that we have interpreters, because sometimes they have a job to follow what I'm saying. Now that I have a few of my colleagues here from Newfoundland and Labrador, I'm sure it will be a wee bit difficult at times. As well, there's interpretation going on at the same time as you're speaking. Sometimes they tap me to slow down, so I'll have to do that sometimes with you too.

What I'm going to do now is ask you to do some opening remarks. Introduce yourselves and what group you represent, and then make a few comments about the small craft harbours program, harbour authorities, whatever you like, and then we'll open up the floor for questions by the committee members. We'll run this for a little over an hour. If there's anything that you feel you want to add, this is your opportunity to do so.

Once again, I thank you for your presence here.

We'll open the floor with Mr. Donald Drew.

2:10 p.m.

Donald Drew Chair, Harbour Authority of Bay Bulls

My name is Don Drew. I am the president of the Harbour Authority of Bay Bulls. I'm also the mayor of Bay Bulls.

I've been on the harbour authority since 1989, when we formed. We opened for business in the spring of 1990. We have two wharves in our community, both about 200 feet in length. We have 18 active under-35-foot enterprises from the community. We also have about eight enterprises from outside the area that come in here to fish. Also, during the year we have a lot of transient boats coming in that do land in the adjoining community of Witless Bay, but then, because the community itself does not have wharfage facilities there that are sheltered, they come to Bay Bulls to be tied up. We have three of the largest tour boat operators in the province. They operate not on our facility but adjacent to it. We also have a lot of pleasure boaters and recreational boaters.

Our primary users are the fish harvesters. When the moratorium was called in 1992, most of our boats ranged from 18 feet to 30 feet, small open trap skiffs using cod traps and gillnets. Today our enterprises are all consisting of 35-footers. Some are joint enterprises, where two enterprises have one boat between them. That's allowed; we're in a buddy-up situation. Now we're looking to combine under new regulations. The problem we have is that we were limited in space in 1992 with the small boats we had, and now today, with the 35-footers, we're even more limited in space.

As well, the harbour is becoming centralized. You have these other eight boats moving in, and every year there's more and more. We don't want to turn them away. We're all harvesters. We're working this together. Everyone accommodates the best they can.

What it comes down to now is that we're limited in space. A number of years back--actually, just after the harbour authority was formed--we put in a request for a breakwater that we needed. The breakwater was to give full use of our whole facility. Now, especially in a southeast wind, most of our wharf on one side, one of our finger piers, cannot be used because it's not sheltered. We then, because of the breeze coming, also get the tour boats, the pleasure boats, the recreational boats. At times, in a breeze, we'll have as high as 40 boats, two and three abreast, in behind a wharf that really has enough room for ten.

But we make do. We have been making do. And we've looked outside the box. About ten years ago, I approached the local offshore oil company that was operating there and was building a facility. They didn't want fish harvesters on collars, which we were heavily dependent on at the time because of limited space on the wharf. We convinced the oil company to build a wharf and breakwater for the Harbour Authority of Bay Bulls free of charge, with no government money. After two years of negotiations, in 2001 we opened it up. That gave us basically eight additional berths, with no government money.

When that wharf was built, there were negotiations back and forth: “Okay, if he can convince an oil company to build us a wharf”--this came from the department--“maybe the government could step in and build the breakwater.” We still don't have the breakwater. Of the two wharves we had at the facility when, again, the moratorium was announced and we did incorporate, one of them has since actually rotted out. We've built a new one there. We still don't have our breakwater.

We don't blame small craft harbours. They're doing the best they can on what money they have to deal with. The trouble we have is with the limited amount of money going into that operation.

The wharves that we're building in Newfoundland have, generally speaking, a target goal of 25 years of life. I've been fishing for 25 years. The wharf that I started fishing on, which was built just previous to that, has now gone and been replaced. But when you look at places in Europe, people are tying onto the same wharves today that Christopher Columbus and John Cabot tied onto when they left to come across. Those wharves are still there.

We're doing something wrong. We're wasting money. We should be building facilities for the long term. We've been building for the short term down the road, just for what the problem is today. We need a breakwater in Bay Bulls, and I don't hide the fact, but it has to be built properly. What we look at in our harbour authority is building a facility there for the fish harvest--that's number one, because it is a fishing harbour--but also making it self-sufficient.

As I said before, we have tour boats operating there, pleasure boats. I have American swordfish boats operating there. They land $2.5 million to $3 million worth of swordfish there every year, which is shipped out of the province. Along with that we have cruise ships, as most of these harbours do.

All of this brings in revenue to the harbour authority, and the harbour authority is self-sustaining. It's a town council operating on the waterfront, that's what it is, and treated the same.

Those who truck grain from the Prairies or truck manufactured goods from Ontario and Quebec to the States need a highway. The key part of our highway is that wharf. We need that infrastructure put into these wharves, to bring them up to what they should be, to make them sheltered. Without that piece of that highway, we can't do our business.

In my own community, an average vessel, when the moratorium was announced, would have cost anywhere from $10,000 to $15,000. Today we're into $150,000-plus. We're making big investments. The problem we've gotten into is that in 1992 people wrote off the fishery. The harvesters didn't. We invested big. All of the enterprises at this table have invested hundreds of thousands of dollars, millions of dollars, into our enterprises and our communities. We're employing these communities. Without us, a lot of these communities wouldn't survive. We need that investment, not only to make them survive but to make them prosper.

2:15 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Fabian Manning

Thank you, Don.

Rom.

2:15 p.m.

Rom Dalton Harbour Authority of Admirals Beach

Mr. Chairman, honourable MP Fabian Manning, honourable members of the Standing Committee on Fisheries and Oceans, and fellow members of the harbour authority in the district of Avalon, it is both an honour and a privilege to speak to you today on the importance of the harbour authorities to our communities.

All of our community is rural and the vast majority depend on the sea to earn a living, whether they're on land or on sea. As the majority of our population is Irish Catholic and the church is an important part of our life, many believe that the wharf is just as sacred as the church.

There are six harbour authorities in St. Mary's Bay: Admirals Beach, Branch, O'Donnells, Riverhead, St. Mary's, and St. Shotts.

Admirals Beach is a designated landing port and has a wharf space for three vessels. It is not safe for winter berthage.

Branch is a designated landing port in which vessels must work the tides because of the small gut or river that runs out of the pond and can only accommodate small-draft vessels. It has wharf space for seven vessels and is suitable for winter berthage.

St. Shotts is on the headland of St. Mary's Bay, and since the moratorium has only been used while the index cod fishery is ongoing. Since the introduction of the crab fishery to the smaller 35-foot fleet, and with larger vessels, fishermen in this area use the harbours in the bay. St. Shotts is a landing port, which is not suitable for summer or winter berthage.

O'Donnells is a designated landing port and has wharf space for seven vessels and is safe for winter berthage as long as vessels are not doubled up. It also is the only port capable of handling the larger 65-foot vessels.

St. Mary's is a designated landing port. There is a strong undertow there, which makes it difficult to even leave boats there overnight during the summer.

Riverhead is a designated landing port, and after years of lobbying to have the only natural harbour in the bay declared a harbour authority, they succeeded a few years ago. It has wharf space for six vessels, with some floating docks that can accommodate more vessels during the fishing season. It is a safe harbour all year round.

There are approximately 70 vessels in the 35-foot to 65-foot vessel range in St. Mary's Bay, along with numerous speed boats. With the impending closure of the marine service centre in Admirals Beach, which some 20 to 30 vessels have called home during the winter for the last 25 years, and the influx of larger vessels into the crab fishery, there is going to be greater demand for the few safe ports in the harbours.

Even though I'm sure the harbour authorities are grateful for the dollars that have been spent in our area, I'm sure they all will agree that a lot more needs to be done to improve their harbours. For example, O'Donnells needs an L on the wharf to protect the harbour from westerly winds, plus about 300 feet of wharf space to accommodate extra boats, which would cost approximately $2 million.

Branch needs dredging done, extra wharf, and some armour stone and pavement, for an approximate cost of $1 million.

Riverhead needs dredging done in the pond and at the entrance to the wharf space around the pond, and it must be noted that once that is done, it is done for life. There is no winter sea that can cause a problem. The approximate cost is $2 million to $3 million.

Admirals Beach needs armour stone to protect the harbour and keep the beach from moving and filling in the harbour. It was dredged this last year. It also needs the water line extended so slipway and more wharf space can be accessed, for approximately $2 million.

St. Shotts lost most of its slipway in a storm a few years ago, and it hasn't been repaired yet.

St. Mary's is the newest harbour authority in our area, and it needs some sheathing on both sides of the wharf and an L on the outside end. The cost is close to $1 million.

As you can see, a lot has been done and a lot needs to be done. Over $8 million of work is needed in just the six harbour authorities. This doesn't include washroom facilities, which are mandatory for landing ports or launching facilities for smaller boats.

Lost in all of the bull talk of what's been done or what needs to be done is the fact that all of this has been done by volunteers all over this island. If volunteers at those harbour boards don't see some progress over a period of time, they may lose interest. I therefore call on all of you to do your utmost to see that all harbour authorities are brought up to a reasonable standard as soon as possible.

Thank you.

2:15 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Fabian Manning

Thank you, Rom.

Kevin.

2:20 p.m.

Kevin McGrath Harbour Authority of St. Brides

Good day. I'm Kevin McGrath, fisher from St. Brides, the same home port as Mr. Manning. I hope when Mr. Manning goes to Ottawa that he introduces himself as from the same home port as Kevin McGrath the fisherman.

2:20 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Fabian Manning

I told you I was playing in front of it.

2:20 p.m.

Harbour Authority of St. Brides

Kevin McGrath

On October 16, 1990, our harbour authority was incorporated with a five-member elected board. The mission of the harbour authority is to operate and manage a safe and commercial fishing harbour in St. Brides. This year will mark our 18th year of operations.

Presently the local board of directors manages three and a half hectares of land leased from the small craft harbours directorate. The local board manages the east and west breakwater, two marginal wharves, eight floating docks and a float approach, harbour office, bait unit, three off-loading systems, saltwater and fresh water systems, paved parking lot, coast guard, air horn, and navigational aids.

Since our harbour authority was put in place with the help of MHAs and MPs such as Mr. Manning here, we have developed a very interesting harbour. Yet our harbour is still not safe enough for the size and number of vessels that use it. With our older generation of fishers getting out of the fishery, we see younger fishers stepping in, and right away those younger fishers go for newer and bigger vessels to fish farther offshore.

Right now we have 45 permanent fishing enterprises in St. Brides, plus another 20 to 25 vessels that come from neighbouring communities like Placentia, Branch, and farther, from St. Mary's Bay sometimes, to unload their catch there. Last year alone we had landings of 3.8 million pounds of fish products, which included crab, cod, lump roe, halibut, and even tuna. We have a processing plant on the wharf in St. Brides where we process most of the groundfish, making work for the residents there for eight months of the year.

Yes, we have a busy harbour right now. But we are working on blasting and dredging inside to make our harbour a lot safer, because when a storm is coming up we have to move to farther away communities, which is 30 or 40 miles out of the way, and this is very costly. And sometimes the storm might come up in the night and you don't get the chance to move. Back in 1999 we had a major hurricane called Gert, and it did a lot of damage to vessels in St. Brides.

So this money that we're spending right now is not enough. We need money approved immediately for this year to put a marginal wharf in this new dredged area to make a safe haven for our fishing vessels.

As I mentioned earlier, we're located right on the headland of Placentia Bay. Cape St. Mary's ecological reserve is only seven miles above us. So we have a lot of tourists and tour boats getting interested in our harbour. Right now our harbour is overcrowded and so busy with fishing boats unloading their catch that there's not room enough there for those tour boats every day to unload their passengers.

So there are a lot of reasons why we need more money in St. Brides. I brought a few pictures with me just to give you an idea of what goes on there.

There is a cruise boat right there that was in the bay. It was a nice day and they got to bring in some of their passengers and unload. Most of the boats had gone out fishing, so there was a bit of room, but some days our harbour is so overcrowded.

2:25 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Fabian Manning

After you have explained them, you could pass them around.

2:25 p.m.

Harbour Authority of St. Brides

Kevin McGrath

Yes.

This is an overhead shot of the harbour itself. Right in here is where we're dredging out right now. We figure that we need 300 feet of marginal wharf inside, because right now when the big boats unload their catch they still have to tie up in the way under those jib cranes. There is no room for them to go inside. So it makes it a bit of a tangle for the other boats that are coming in behind.

Thank you.

2:25 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Fabian Manning

Thank you, Kevin, and thanks for the pictures.

Just pass the pictures right around, boys, and we'll work them back to Kevin.

Mr. Petten, we were down to visit your harbour this morning. It was an eye-opener for many of my colleagues.

Just before you begin, I should do now what I didn't do at the start of the meeting, and that is welcome my colleagues, or those who are not from here, to Newfoundland and Labrador, and welcome them to, in this case, the riding of Avalon. I'm proud to call it our riding.

Mr. Petten.

2:30 p.m.

Ross Petten Harbour Authority of Port de Grave

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Ross Petten is my name. I'm from Port de Grave. I've been on the harbour authority for a number of years. I had a call just this morning to ask if I'd like to attend, so I'm not prepared very well. I'll try to do the best I can under the circumstances.

We have a good harbour in Port de Grave. It's a man-made harbour. We've done a lot of work on it over the last ten years. A lot of money went in there, in excess of $10 million, I believe, to be exact. It was a nightmare of a harbour, what we had there originally. It had a different opening. We changed it from coming eastward from the open sea to westward into the harbour.

Really, for the type of harbour we have, we've got a lot of costly boats. We have a bigger-sized fleet of boats, I guess, than mainly what's around the rest of the province. You'll see some of the largest types of boats in Port de Grave harbour. I would say the average cost is over $1 million for most of the boats. We have some smaller ones, but not many. Our main size of boat is 65 feet long.

We have washrooms and facilities for all our boats. We also accommodate a lot of boats when they come in from other communities, especially tie-up time in the winter. We have them from all around the island. We have them there from Labrador and everywhere.

When we built our harbour, there was a lot of blasting. A lot of work went on. We also got so many floating docks there for the smaller-type boats, the pleasure craft. We also accommodate some pleasure craft there also.

But I guess no matter how big your harbour is, you never have it big enough. There's no way to accommodate without a lot of people getting along very well together and being able to move around and let people off-load, let people tie off outside of each other. The big thing is cooperation, I guess, in any of these things, but there's always a job to be done. We're always after money to extend or add on or build on. We'd like to also be considered, because for our harbour we're always trying to have extra walls and we're always trying to get floating docks.

Also, we're a volunteer sector. I'd certainly like to see more funding come in that area, so that you could help train people. Some of these applications and some of these other things you're into now are really out of our field. It takes a lot of work. And it's a lot to expect volunteers to be doing, to be honest with you. I think you should be looking at putting more funding into these areas of work.

That's about all I have to say. Thank you.

2:30 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Fabian Manning

Thank you, Mr. Petten.

Thank you to all the witnesses.

Mr. Petten just talked about the volunteers, and that's exactly one purpose of our meetings--to talk not just about just wharfs and infrastructure but about the concerns expressed around volunteering. We've heard before from witnesses about volunteer fatigue, not only with harbour authorities but with many volunteer groups in all our communities. That's certainly another aspect, a different aspect, that we need to have a look at through our report also.

The process here, witnesses, is that basically we have a round of questions. We give ten minutes to the opposition, the Liberal Party; seven to the Bloc; five to the NDP; and ten to our party. Then if we need to go around again and do another round of questions, we break up the time into five minutes each.

Mr. MacAulay, I think you're going to lead off our questions this afternoon.

2:30 p.m.

Liberal

Lawrence MacAulay Liberal Cardigan, PE

Thank you very much, Mr. Chairman.

It's a pleasure to be here. It's good to meet you people; you have a lot of the same concerns as I hear pretty often in my own riding in Prince Edward Island.

Mr. Drew, when you gave your statement you mentioned that in Bay Bulls, from a number of years ago to today, the boats have become much larger, which means you need a lot more room. What dollars are involved in order to create this?

2:30 p.m.

Chair, Harbour Authority of Bay Bulls

Donald Drew

Realistically, we have two different projects. The outside breakwater, which we see as the primary necessity for shelter, is $1 million. We have another plan, through a tourism development, working with our fishermen, tourism, and recreation users all together, that's possibly going through ACOA for another $1 million for that project. But for small crafts and harbours, it's only $1 million. And that was an estimate from about four years ago.

2:30 p.m.

Liberal

Lawrence MacAulay Liberal Cardigan, PE

Most people here understand fisheries pretty well--what the breakwater means for the safety of the boats, protection of the wharf, and all of that. It would also be an investment in longevity. I think you indicated that harbours in Europe can last so much longer and how important it is to have these breakwaters for safety reasons alone.

2:30 p.m.

Chair, Harbour Authority of Bay Bulls

Donald Drew

This particular wharf, the outside one, now I think is somewhere around 30 to 32 years old, and for the first five years it was there it wasn't used, because it was shorter at the time. We had a breakwater and it couldn't be used. We extended it, and because of the force of sea ice, losing their own premises, more and more harvesters went to it, and you still had your collar out to go to besides. Then when we got involved with the offshore oil coming into Bay Bulls we could no longer use collars, which is an anchorage. So we were forced to continue to use what we have.

As I said before, this particular wharf is getting long in the tooth. Without the shelter it's deteriorating. Our wharf is somewhat of a breakwater now, but it is starting to deteriorate because there was no shelter provided for that.

2:30 p.m.

Liberal

Lawrence MacAulay Liberal Cardigan, PE

Thank you very much.

I don't want to take up all the time, Kevin, but I had a chance to speak to you when you came in, and you have a business plan in place, I suspect, for the blasting. How many extra boats, and what is the cost of what you plan to do in this area and the necessity of it?

2:35 p.m.

Harbour Authority of St. Brides

Kevin McGrath

Well, I see in our area that the boats are going much bigger. As I said, we have 45 fishing enterprises right in the town of St. Brides. Fifteen of them are over the age of 55. Now, as those older people get out of the fishery, their younger sons or someone else in the community will take over those enterprises, and right away those younger people are going for newer and bigger boats. This is what's happening.

Twenty years ago we didn't need a lot of room in St. Brides. We only had small 30-foot boats and that was it. Now fishermen have to travel farther offshore and they need bigger boats to carry more ice and everything else.

We looked at our costs last year before we got into this dredging, and it was from $900,000 to a little over $1 million. We got a little bit of work done on it. We had $400,000 approved last year, and the bid went in a good bit under and we didn't use up all that money. Right now what we're looking for is the continuation of this plan that we're into so that we will not have to be moving to the other harbours coming up this summer.

2:35 p.m.

Liberal

Lawrence MacAulay Liberal Cardigan, PE

I thank you very much. I'm closing because I want to give my other colleagues a chance to look at Mr. Petten's wharf and what dollars can do and what they can create and the economy it can create. I understand how important it is, so I'll pass on to one of my colleagues.

2:35 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Fabian Manning

Mr. Simms, you have almost six minutes.

2:35 p.m.

Liberal

Scott Simms Liberal Bonavista—Gander—Grand Falls—Windsor, NL

Perfect.

Gentlemen, thank you for coming in. It's good to see some of you again.

I just want to start very quickly. Mr. Drew, you talked about transient boats. In that scenario when they judge small craft harbours funding and so on and so forth, one of the categories is how many full-time harvesters you have up against your wharf, or that use it on a yearly basis. But you talked about transient boats. I think this is going to add into it. How many transient boats do you have?

Mr. Petten, you talked about this as well, so you could address this also.

2:35 p.m.

Chair, Harbour Authority of Bay Bulls

Donald Drew

Most of us here are in the same situation, the same as Kevin and Ron; our harbours deal with the same thing. Some places are good to unload. In our location it's Witless Bay. The fish plant is there and they come in to unload in Witless Bay. You could put about $50 million in Witless Bay and you wouldn't make a safe harbour, because it's open; there's no shelter.

So they unload, and as soon as the boat is unloaded they come to Bay Bulls. It might be only two or three tonight, it could be three tomorrow night. They're not unloading. We're not getting the benefits of our tally saying that there's this much unloading in Bay Bulls, because they have previously unloaded their product in another community and then they come to Bay Bulls to tie up maybe for one or two nights and then go on. This is a transient boat. We do get small bits of berthage for them, but they are using the facility. They need the facility, like the situation in Witless Bay, but without more infrastructure we can't house them. We're tying up two and three abreast in an unsheltered area.