Some of them have to be dredged every year.
Evidence of meeting #28 for Fisheries and Oceans in the 39th Parliament, 2nd Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was wharf.
Evidence of meeting #28 for Fisheries and Oceans in the 39th Parliament, 2nd Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was wharf.
9:35 a.m.
Secretary-Treasurer, Stonehaven Harbour Authority
Some of them have to be dredged every year.
9:35 a.m.
Stonehaven Harbour Authority
So it would vary from wharf to wharf. Some of them are more sheltered than others, so to me that would vary from wharf to wharf.
9:35 a.m.
Conservative
Mike Allen Conservative Tobique—Mactaquac, NB
Would the other wharves that are here comment ? Do you have a longer timeline because of the rock situation, or do you see more...?
9:35 a.m.
Vice President, Administration portuaire du Quai de Tracadie
We don't really have a problem with rocks but more with silting. It is actually mud and it accumulates year by year. Dredging certainly has to be done more often than in places where there is rock.
9:35 a.m.
Administration portuaire de Pointe-Verte
We think that regular maintenance and dredging for six or seven years at Pointe-Verte would have been enough. When they came 18 years ago for the first time to dig, they had to dynamite most of the wharf. When 10,000 metres of rocks are left in the corner of the wharf from the outset, that's an indication that not everything was planned and that there was no follow-up. If a private business worked like that it would go bankrupt pretty quickly.
There has to be a little more consistency when a wharf project is undertaken and people become responsible for a wharf. We're asked to draw up business plans, but even though we send them off, there is never any follow-up to those plans. Or it takes so many years that we have to redo those business plans again and again. As we stated earlier, we're all volunteers and we're not directly involved in administration. I am a fisherman and I cannot spend all my time on the phone talking with someone in Ottawa or elsewhere. It's starting to take a lot of time. I almost need a secretary. When you think about it, we don't have the means to do this. Fortunately there are places where people do carry out those responsibilities. The amount of work is enormous.
I would like to add a point about major and smaller wharfs. What is true—and I don't mean this to be discrimination—is that major wharfs and smaller wharfs should have different budgets. And that has already been stated. I understand that situation of major wharfs. Many vessels come in. I've been to Shippagan and to Lamèque and I know that there are parts of the wharf where berthing is impossible because it's in such a state of disrepair. I understand. I also understand that all the money goes into one pot and everybody has to compete for it.
Elections were being talked about earlier but that is not what is important. It's the person who knows people who knows other people who know the right people who will get the money. That is the reality. That's the only way of getting money for a wharf. If a friend, or his son knows a member of Parliament who knows the minister in Ottawa, then he stands a very good chance of getting money for his project.
That is how things work in small outfits. We have ended up acting like dogs fighting over a bone.
9:40 a.m.
Conservative
Mike Allen Conservative Tobique—Mactaquac, NB
Mr. Mallet, regarding Shippagan, I'd like to clarify your comments.
You said in 1999 that you had a section closed because it was unsafe. Then in 2004 you closed another section because it was unsafe. Then you indicated that you have 1,182 metres of berthing for 2,000 metres of boat length.
In 1999 and 2004, how much space was closed and has not been reopened, or was it all closed and never reopened?
9:40 a.m.
Administration portuaire de Shippagan
No. According to my calculations, we closed the first section for five years. The Shippagan wharf is divided into three sections, two of which were functional. We therefore had to redirect our clients to those two sections and overload them. We carried out the project and I can guarantee you that the end result was excellent. I am certain that that section will last another 30 years.
However, the wharf of the section we closed in 2004 is available for berthing vessels only. When the harbour authorities were first established, we were told by these people that they would be there to support us when repairs became necessary. One could say that they missed the boat. We now have to work with facilities that are in bad shape and it takes us an enormous amount of time to carry out projects. And all the while our users our grumbling. I should count the number of users who come knocking at my door on a daily basis. They lack space and the only thing I can tell them is that I hope I'll get enough money for the projects next year. The following year I tell them the same thing, and it's the same year after year.
As you can see, we waited from 2004 to 2008 simply to get this decision to do the project. Furthermore, we're being told it will be done in two-year stages. We've been waiting several years but we have had to keep up our activities the whole time. We can't go elsewhere. These facilities are all we have to work with.
I'll give you a simple comparison. I am chief fireman on the Shippagan volunteer fire brigade. Every year the people of the town of Shippagan make sure that our equipment and facilities are in good working order so that we can provide good service to our citizens. That's perfectly normal. Yet our engineers tell us that our port facilities are in bad condition. Mr. Blais agrees. I thought his riding's facilities were in better shape than ours but apparently they are not.
Regardless of which government is in power, they must ensure that our facilities are in a condition that allows us to pursue our work.
9:45 a.m.
Conservative
The Chair Conservative Fabian Manning
Thank you, Mr. Allen, and thank you, Mr. Mallet.
Committee members, I'm going to allow a second round of questions, but I'm going to have to reduce the time to four minutes apiece because we have to prepare for our next witnesses. That includes your questions and your answers. And I will be strict on the time because I need to be ready for our next set of witnesses.
My understanding is that Mr. Simms will start this round. Mr. Simms, you have four minutes.
9:45 a.m.
Liberal
Scott Simms Liberal Bonavista—Gander—Grand Falls—Windsor, NL
I have so many questions and I only have a few minutes, but I want to address one thing. I'm looking for ideas more than anything else, or maybe something you can tell us that you have experienced.
When it comes to volunteer fatigue...and Ms. Payne, you said it. You run a business and you alluded to that as well. How can the Government of Canada, through DFO, through small craft harbours, from an operations point of view, help you manage your harbour as a business?
9:45 a.m.
Secretary-Treasurer, Stonehaven Harbour Authority
From my perspective, I don't necessarily want to change things, and maybe that's because I like the idea that we are running it like a business and it is working okay for Stonehaven. Down the road maybe there will need to be a grouping of wharves and a wharf manager who basically manages two or three wharves. Stonehaven might manage Miller Brook, Stonehaven, and Grande-Anse, hire that person on a seasonal basis, and have that person receive dollars from either the harbour authority or from the Government or Canada or somebody in order to run that like a business.
9:45 a.m.
Stonehaven Harbour Authority
The biggest frustration with the whole thing, we have found, is the financing. It is to get the finances. That seems to be the biggest thing for us anyway. We never seem to get that funding money, and there is so much pressure, year after year, to do the same thing over and over.
9:45 a.m.
Vice President, Administration portuaire du Quai de Tracadie
As Ms. Payne stated, we have to manage our small sea port like a business. What is so exhausting is that we begin by volunteering our time and after having spent a considerable amount of time drawing up a project, when we ask for the funding the answer is always the same: there is no money, the application is being turned down. And so we start over, and submit another project.
The hours spent on volunteering with no end result are enough to exhaust those who are volunteering. There is never anything to show for it. We have to deal with managing our own small business.
9:45 a.m.
Secretary, Administration portuaire du Quai de Tracadie
I said this two years ago in Moncton. Mr. Arseneau talked about a secretary and a telephone. Could small harbour authorities not have the money—a small amount—to cover the salary of a seasonal manager who would take care of any accounting that we are currently handing over to not entirely pleasant accountants? That manager would prepare accounting statements and manage the business end. The contributions of our fisherman would thus truly serve for the purposes of facility maintenance.
9:45 a.m.
Vice President, Administration portuaire du Quai de Tracadie
We're talking about small ports. What is the difference between a small sea port and a major sea port.
Here we have small sea ports? Our port is viewed as a small one. The one beside us should be considered a major port, I feel.
9:45 a.m.
Administration portuaire de Shippagan
I can answer your question. It is measured in metres of boat length.
9:45 a.m.
Vice President, Administration portuaire du Quai de Tracadie
There. I got my answer but my question was on budgets. Our needs are the same but on a different scale. As Mr. Arseneau stated earlier, different budgets are granted to small ports with less than 15 vessels. The major ports receive millions of dollars. We think it would be much more efficient to have a budget set aside specifically for small port projects and to have major ports apply for the funding of major projects. Currently all applications go into the same pot.
9:50 a.m.
Conservative
The Chair Conservative Fabian Manning
Thank you, Mr. LeBreton, and thank you, Mr. Simms. We have to hop along.
Mr. Blais, please.
9:50 a.m.
Bloc
Raynald Blais Bloc Gaspésie—Îles-de-la-Madeleine, QC
You're familiar with ACOA. Were you aware that in New Brunswick or elsewhere in the Maritimes, some projects could be funded under ACOA?
9:50 a.m.
Administration portuaire de Pointe-Verte
At one point, I contacted people to find out whether or not ACOA could help us. I think that the purpose of ACOA is to help develop the regions. Be that as it may, people appear to think that fishing is a special case and that some other sector will look after it. We are still waiting to find out which sector will look after us.
Earlier on, I wanted to make a comment about the administration, but I did not have an opportunity to do so. The harbour authority runs very smoothly. Our business is doing well. That is our business. We have managed to get people and fishers to understand that they have to pay wharfage and take on some responsibility for the wharf. We signed this agreement with the department and we have done what we were to do, but we are still waiting for the department to do its bit.
As the lady and most interveners said, our biggest frustration comes from the fact that we don't have the money we need to achieve what we want to do. The wharves are becoming more and more dilapidated, to the point where we now need to spend $600 million to restore them. In addition, you have to be lucky enough to fit into the right category. Indeed, for the past 18 years we have been told that we don't fall into the right category. And yet, more than 50 or 60 people earn their living every year by fishing from our wharf. Yet they keep being told that they do not fit the right category.
What do you have to do to fall under the right category?
9:50 a.m.
Bloc
9:50 a.m.
Administration portuaire de Pointe-Verte
No, and I don't want to be. I am a fisher and I was also president of the Administration portuaire de Pointe-Verte for several years, but I got tired of this role. It is true that we are frustrated. It is a little bit difficult to set the rules when you are a fisher yourself. One president remained in the job for one year and then Mr. Léger arrived. He is tougher than the others. In fact, he has been in this position for a few years now.
9:50 a.m.
Bloc
Raynald Blais Bloc Gaspésie—Îles-de-la-Madeleine, QC
Don't you think that you should broaden the coalition?
9:50 a.m.
Administration portuaire de Shippagan
In answer to your question about ACOA, I would like to ask you whether you have made an application under this program. Try it to see what happens. The number of administrative hurdles is incredible and it is discouraging. At one point, we wanted to set up a tourist project on our wharf. We were looking at a budget of $2.2 million. We went to see the people from ACOA, but it took so much time and resources that we decided to abandon the project.
9:50 a.m.
Administration portuaire de Pointe-Verte
ACOA stands for the Atlantic Canada Opportunities Agency. This agency is supposed to develop the Atlantic area and to distribute money amongst the small economic hubs of the region, but it does not do this. It does not respect its mandate, at least not at certain levels and certainly not in the fishing sector. In Ottawa, the officials are saying that there will not be any more fishing in the eastern part of the country until the end of the century. However, fishing is not over. Every year we put our boats into the water and we fish.