Evidence of meeting #34 for Fisheries and Oceans in the 39th Parliament, 2nd Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was harbour.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Neil Ellis  Mayor, City of Belleville
Steve Hyndman  Chief Administrative Officer, City of Belleville
Marjorie Buck  Director of Recreation and Community Services, City of Belleville
Rick Kester  Director, Engineering and Public Works, City of Belleville
Leo Finnegan  Mayor, County of Prince Edward
Barry Braun  Commissioner of Recreation, Parks and Culture, County of Prince Edward
Roxy Lancaster  As an Individual
Albert Vancott  As an Individual

12:20 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Fabian Manning

Please take a seat, folks.

We'll call it back to order and welcome our two gentlemen here this morning. I'm sorry it was such short notice, but we have a schedule in place and we managed to move through it fairly quickly. I know you've been here listening intently this morning, so I've taken it upon myself to consult with my colleagues. We don't do this on an ordinary basis, but since we have some time to do it, we'll certainly allow you to make a few opening comments.

We're hoping to get in a five-minute round of questions, and to do that we have to move along, so I'll advise all members that I'll be sticking to the time as much as I can.

If you want to introduce yourselves, say who you represent, and have a few opening comments, we'd be delighted to hear from you.

12:20 p.m.

Roxy Lancaster As an Individual

I'm Roxy Lancaster. My partner is Albert Vancott. We fish commercially out of Point Traverse Harbour. I must say, right off the bat, I've got to commiserate with the gentleman from Belleville; you do not want your harbour or your docks to fall into the wrong hands. Ours has. It's fallen to Environment Canada, whose purpose in life is basically to exclude all people from the CWS--Canadian Wildlife Service--properties at Long Point. Currently, they're encouraging the birders, but ultimately they would like it as a reserve area, where no man treads. This seems to be Environment Canada's mandate.

When Environment Canada took over the property from private hands, we had to struggle, but we made a deal with them to retain properties along the harbour side and the docks we had currently, to continue the commercial fishery in this area.

Now, I go back at least four generations, to the United Empire Loyalists, all of whom were fishermen in my past. My father's side of the family came into the fishery sort of sideways; his father had been a farmer.

Environment Canada basically has no budget. Probably because of their political games a couple of years ago, most of the staff in Ottawa has been fired. I worked for Environment Canada part-time as a contract worker, doing small repairs and such. Basically our harbour has been let go to total rack and ruin, to the point where the harbour actually was closed clear across. The beach just simply moved in and covered the entrance.

Over the past few years, most of the maintenance has been done out of pocket by the commercial fishermen and other interested user groups. The anglers and the commercial fishery get along very well here. Everybody is more than willing to throw into the pot when it comes time to dredge. For the guy who operates the dredging equipment, basically a lot of his work is unpaid. But the harbour channel now needs work, and it needs armour stone on the outside of it to prevent further closures. The problem is that in the thirties and the fifties we had high water, before the Seaway was built. It eroded away the protective entrance at the outer harbour, and this is why we're getting these problems now. If it were armour stoned one time, dredged back to a depth of nine feet, and the silt cleaned out of the harbour properly, we'd be good to go for years to come.

Long Point Harbour is a safe haven harbour. At least it was. Quite frankly, I don't like to detract from Mr. Finnegan's presentation, but if you're in trouble on Lake Ontario and you try to go into Wellington Harbour on a bad day, you're going to get yourself real dead. The Canadian Coast Guard—I think it was Canadian, it may have been American—lost a vessel in the bay outside Wellington. It was a coast guard vessel. The man on board perished. It's not a nice place to come in a bad storm. Lake Ontario needs safe haven harbours. Ours is basically the only harbour between Cobourg and, for the sake of argument, Waupoos, where there's a safe haven to get in off that open lake.

The fishery rescues sailboats and recreational boaters really often. Twice last spring, two days in a row, we pulled vessels off the end of Waupoos and the end of False Ducks, vessels that had gone on the shoals unknowingly and would probably have been broken up in very short order if we hadn't gone in and got them, at risk to our own vessel.

We need to get that harbour back into somebody's hands, whether it be the county or whoever. Basically we need to get that harbour back into the hands of somebody who cares. Right now they don't care. They would just as soon see it closed.

We are operating about six boats out of the harbour at this time, the biggest being 60 feet, mine being 35.

It's an active fishery, so far. I know the fishery is dying, but we're still trying. Off and on we have to work out, but most of our lives we've worked the commercial fishery.

12:25 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Fabian Manning

Mr. Byrne.

12:25 p.m.

Liberal

Gerry Byrne Liberal Humber—St. Barbe—Baie Verte, NL

Gentlemen, thank you.

It is very important. This committee takes the point of view of commercial fishers extremely seriously. That's why we're delighted to have you.

I'll introduce a bias. I almost anticipated you were going to talk about a conflict between recreational harbours and commercial harbours. You're not telling us that. The conflict is with another federal government department.

What exactly did Environment Canada tell you when you asked them for the resources or for them to apply the resources?

12:25 p.m.

Albert Vancott As an Individual

Nothing available.

12:25 p.m.

Liberal

Gerry Byrne Liberal Humber—St. Barbe—Baie Verte, NL

Nothing available.

You mentioned a time period when there was a sea change, pardon the pun, that occurred at Environment Canada. You alluded to about two years ago. Could you describe that in a little more detail?

12:25 p.m.

As an Individual

Roxy Lancaster

The scandal when different government agencies were putting money into one of our political parties.

12:25 p.m.

Liberal

Gerry Byrne Liberal Humber—St. Barbe—Baie Verte, NL

How does that relate to Environment Canada's decision?

12:25 p.m.

As an Individual

Roxy Lancaster

Environment Canada was one of the departments accused of shoving money into a political coffer, and heads rolled in Ottawa.

12:25 p.m.

Liberal

Gerry Byrne Liberal Humber—St. Barbe—Baie Verte, NL

Are you a political organization?

12:25 p.m.

As an Individual

Roxy Lancaster

I worked for Environment Canada at the time. The man I worked for was fired. I shouldn't say fired. He and his entire staff were moved sideways. The finance people moved from Ottawa to Burlington. I work for a guy out of Long Point, Lake Erie now; I used to work for a man out of Ottawa.

We pay a lease on the properties, and nobody knows where to send the lease money at this point because the department closed in Ottawa. The fellow in Long Point doesn't know how to get our cash into his department, so we're in limbo in a lot of ways.

12:30 p.m.

Liberal

Gerry Byrne Liberal Humber—St. Barbe—Baie Verte, NL

Was anybody in Environment Canada in this particular region involved in a scandal where they sent money to a political organization?

12:30 p.m.

As an Individual

Roxy Lancaster

I understand the department in Ottawa was accused. I don't know whether anything ever came of it. This was very public. Surely you guys remember this, don't you?

12:30 p.m.

Liberal

Gerry Byrne Liberal Humber—St. Barbe—Baie Verte, NL

But you're very confident this is very important to us.

12:30 p.m.

As an Individual

Albert Vancott

It's part of the reason why there's no money. I think what Roxy is trying to say is that they're saying there's no money available for us to work on the docks and for them to maintain a harbour they took responsibility for, but at the same time, anybody who reads the paper, about every day there's something else about money being transferred to this party or money going to this government or we're sending money overseas. Yet we never seem to have money to take care of some of the things right here in our own area.

We don't have a problem with the harbours, the anglers, the multi-use of harbours or the development of waterfront if it's in a good and proper way. Our problem is, when we go and talk to somebody about trying to get the harbour fixed, it's always the same thing. There's no money available.

Whether it's the Ministry of Natural Resources saying if we can get the work done, maybe later on they can chip in some funds to help us...we always seem to get the shit end of the stick. It's always, okay, if the anglers were sitting here now complaining, Mr. Finnegan and Mr. Braun would have had lots to say about why we should build new docks for anglers' boats. He said there are no fishermen in Wellington. Within a mile to two miles of Wellington is Athol Bay. It is not that far down the shore.

We'd fish whitefish in Athol Bay, if we didn't have to run from Point Traverse. For us to go into Wellington Harbour, there are no docks available for us. There used to be, but now if you're not an angler you're not welcome, and you're made to feel not welcome. You can't leave your boat unattended without it being destroyed. It's just better to try to find someplace else to fish.

Our licence runs from the other side of Wellington all the way to Wolfe Island off Kingston. We have lots of waters to fish, and we just choose not to go up there because it's better for us.

12:30 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Fabian Manning

Thank you, Mr. Vancott.

Mr. Blais.

12:30 p.m.

Bloc

Raynald Blais Bloc Gaspésie—Îles-de-la-Madeleine, QC

Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

Mr. Chairman, I want to congratulate you. Thank you for hearing my recommendation that we hear from the commercial fishermen.

What kind of fishing do you do? How many fishermen are there in the region? How are they distributed? Is there an association or associations? How does that work?

12:30 p.m.

As an Individual

Albert Vancott

We're part of the Ontario Commercial Fisheries' Association, which actually has some licences that go across the Quebec border. Fishermen from Quebec come to our annual meetings.

I believe you have 16 licences to harvest glass eels, 14-centimetre eels, from the Quebec border down towards the east coast. I don't know if Mr. Simms would know about fishing the glass eels down there, since he's an east coaster; Mr. Manning might. We're not allowed to catch eels now because they're not available for us as a species to harvest.

The number of fishermen in the area continues to go down. A lot of people are getting too old, die off, or just plain retire. It's pretty hard to get somebody to work on a boat when you tell them you'll give them a percentage of anywhere from zero to whatever. You might make money or it might cost you money.

The number of fishermen in this area is probably down by 400% or 500% from what it was even 20 years ago. The government did some buyouts in the eighties and bought up a bunch of licences, which took more fishermen out of it. We're down to one buyer right now in the area. He has a licensed export-import processing plant. Sometimes he'll have as few as 10 employees, and sometimes he'll run three shifts with as many as 100. So the fishing industry in this area goes up and down quite a bit, as to how many are involved.

Right now out of Point Traverse we have about six full-time commercial fishing licences being fished regularly. About another 20 belong to people who are too old to go out any more. They can't get young people to go out on the boats and help them. So we are a dying breed around here.

You can see that our council and our mayor don't even think we exist any more. So it's pretty hard to say how many are actually involved in commercial fishing. I think there are about 60 licences, and they are pretty well family-type licences. There might be 10 people from one family fishing on that one licence, so it's pretty hard for anybody to know just how many of us there are.

12:35 p.m.

Bloc

Raynald Blais Bloc Gaspésie—Îles-de-la-Madeleine, QC

What kind of fishing do you do? What is the economic value of landings in the region?

12:35 p.m.

As an Individual

Albert Vancott

We had a meeting on April 2 with the MNR. Last year was one of the worst years we'd had in this area in a long time, and I believe it was up at $4 million or $5 million just for the county area. So there's still a viable industry. Our fish stocks are coming back more all the time. We've started a summer white fishery. We've been involved in the summer testing program with the MNR for six years. Pickerel are coming back. As Mr. Kramp can tell you, that's a major game fish in the area. They're letting us try fishing for it this year. Of course, all the net we need for that has been illegal up to about a week ago, so not too many guys have it.

There is an industry here, and it can be blended in with tourism. People stop when we're working on nets to ask us what we're doing, because most of them don't even realize we're here.

I think Mr. Stoffer mentioned the lighthouse. We have a lighthouse at Point Traverse that went through a lot of changes, and it's basically falling apart. It's looked after by the Thousand Islands park service out of Gananoque, which makes a lot of sense. The coast guard flies up with a helicopter once in a while and checks the light next to it.

As far as maintenance on the lighthouse, you slap a couple of boards on it and hope it doesn't fall down. Nobody can go in it. You can walk around and take a look at it. A lot of people have painted it and taken pictures, but it's not really a usable thing. We've never really had the county interested in trying to take over something like that. The old lighthouse at False Duck is now at the marine museum at the head of South Bay. It gets quite a few visitors. They've opened up a mariner's museum in town, which I hear is drawing a lot of people.

At Long Point we have a viable commercial fishery. At one time on a weekend like the past one we'd have had as many as 30 boaters there--yachts and sailboats. Now the boats don't come in because they know it's not safe. It is something that should have been looked at a long time ago.

12:35 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Fabian Manning

Mr. Vancott, I have to move on to Mr. Stoffer.

Mr. Stoffer.

12:35 p.m.

NDP

Peter Stoffer NDP Sackville—Eastern Shore, NS

Gentlemen, do you interact with any first nations fisheries at all?

12:35 p.m.

As an Individual

12:35 p.m.

As an Individual

Roxy Lancaster

Well, actually there's Leonard Hill. There have been commercial native fishers.

12:35 p.m.

As an Individual

Albert Vancott

Well, yes. There have been Mohawks who have had commercial fishing licences. We've never had any real problems with them.

The Canadian Wildlife Service had more problems with natives hunting deer on the property down there.