Fisheries Committee on March 21st, 2024

[The Chair, Liberal, Ken McDonald]

I call this meeting to order.

Welcome to meeting number 103 of the House of Commons Standing Committee on Fisheries and Oceans.

This meeting is taking place in a hybrid format, pursuant to the Standing Orders.

Before I proceed, I would like to make a few comments for the benefit of witnesses and members. Please wait until I recognize you by name before speaking. For those participating by video conference, click on the microphone icon to activate your mic, and please mute yourself when you are not speaking. For interpretation for those on Zoom, you have the choice, at the bottom of your screen, of floor, English or French. For those in the room, you can use the earpiece and select the desired channel. Please address all comments through the chair.

Before we proceed, I simply want to remind members to be very careful when handling the earpieces, especially when your microphone or your neighbour's microphone is turned on. Earpieces placed too close to a microphone are one of the most common causes of sound feedback, which is extremely harmful to interpreters and causes serious injuries.

Pursuant to Standing Order 108(2) and the motion adopted on February 27, 2024, the committee is studying the subject matter of supplementary estimates (C).

On our first panel today, we are welcoming back to committee the Honourable Diane Lebouthillier, Minister of Fisheries, Oceans and the Canadian Coast Guard, accompanied by Annette Gibbons, deputy minister; and Luc Robitaille, director general, budget planning and financial management. From the Canadian Coast Guard, we have Mr. Mario Pelletier, commissioner.

Thank you, Minister, for taking the time to appear today. You will have five minutes or less for your opening statement. The floor is yours.

[Diane Lebouthillier, Liberal, Minister of Fisheries]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I would first like to say that I am very happy to be here with you, colleagues, on the traditional unceded territory of the Algonquin Anishinabe people, to present supplementary estimates (C) 2023-2024 on behalf of my department, the DFO.

In these supplementary estimates, I am seeking a majority of the funding for three key sectors of the department, a total of $102.3 million. First, $50 million will be allocated to the Salish Sea Initiative. That figure, which is carried forward from the previous year's department budget, will be used to establish an investment fund managed by indigenous people with the aim of providing long-term support for priority projects for the first nations, which seek to improve the health of the ecosystems in their traditional waters. Second, $30 million dollars will be devoted to the increase in the cost of marine fuel associated with the Canadian Coast Guard fleet. This funding will enable it to carry out the activities planned for this year, including by supporting conservation and environmental protection programs and undertaking law enforcement oversight activities at sea. Third, $11.6 million will be used to protect and promote the health of at-risk whale populations, such as the North Atlantic right whale, southern resident killer whales and the St. Lawrence Estuary beluga. If committee members have questions about these investments, my officials and I will be happy to provide more details after my presentation.

Before we do that, however, there are several points I would like to address. I am well aware that the members of this committee would like to talk about numerous other topics of discussion today.

I will start with redfish. In January, as you know, I announced the reopening of the Unit 1 commercial redfish fishery starting this year. Since this fishery had been under a moratorium for almost 30 years, I have to tell you that in the circumstances, this can only be good news. The first phase of the reopening of the commercial fishery will last two years. During that period, the redfish quota will be at least—and yes, I said at least—25,000 tonnes or more, based on the recommendations that come out of the meeting of the Redfish Advisory Committee that was held at the beginning of the month. I know there was also discussion of how the quota will be allocated among the fleets and measures for managing the fishery.

The department is currently compiling all of the comments on which certain decisions that must be made before the Unit 1 redfish fishery opens for the 2024 season will be based. While we are now in the very early stages of this reopening, I am sure that ultimately, when the industry has buckled down to the job, developed markets and strengthened its processing capacity, the redfish fishery will be a formidable economic development tool for our coastal communities. We know that between then and now there is work still to be done; that is why I have repeatedly said over recent months, and this is particularly true in the case of the shrimp boats, that the redfish fishery will not solve everything.

That brings me to my second point: the difficult situation currently facing shrimp fishers. First, allow me to express my full support for everyone who is affected, whether directly or indirectly, by the closing this week of the Fruits de mer de l'Est processing plant in Matane. I have to tell you that the closing of a fishery company is never good news, period.

As we know, the industry is facing multiple problems and challenges, and with climate change and the resulting heating of the oceans, everything underwater is in flux right now. The data presented by Fisheries and Oceans last week speaks for itself. The climate crisis is real and its effects are already being felt in our marine ecosystems. Shrimp has fallen victim to it, but other species will have to live with similar disruptions in the years to come. That is why a broader examination of the future of the fisheries is called for. We owe it to our children, our grandchildren and our great-grandchildren.

Just last week, I had a constructive meeting in Ottawa with representatives of the Association des capitaines-propriétaires de la Gaspésie, the Fédération régionale acadienne des pêcheurs professionnels, and the Fish, Food & Allied Workers. We addressed the difficult situation that shrimp boats in the St. Lawrence estuary and gulf are currently facing, and also the great importance of supporting fishers and processors in the region.

You may rest assured that between then and now, I will continue to keep open the channels of communication with the industry and with the indigenous communities and my provincial counterparts, in order to overcome, together, the climate challenges our coastal communities are facing at present.

Last, I want to talk about the eel fishery. As you know, I made the difficult decision last week to not open the 2024 eel fishery in the Maritimes and to not issue eel fishing licences. In recent years, the eel fishery has faced very serious challenges related to unauthorized fishing and impacts on conservation of the species, as well as threats and violence committed against fishers, fishery officers and other people.

I am perfectly aware that this fishery and the fisheries of other species are important to the economic health of our coastal communities. I want to stress once again that this decision was neither easy nor pleasant to make. However, responsible management of resources and public safety must always take precedence over everything else. That is why anyone who tries to fish for eels will be subject to law enforcement measures taken by fishery officers who are cooperating with other agencies to combat the unauthorized fishing, sale and possession of eels for export purposes.

Since last week, fishery officers have arrested at least 34 people and seized a considerable amount of equipment. In other words, fishery officers are doing their job: They are patrolling the rivers, facilities and points of export as we speak. Not only is it wrong to claim otherwise, it also encourages other people to commit illegal acts, which will lead to more arrests. Allow me to say that I find that despicable and downright irresponsible.

The department is continuing its work to make the necessary changes to the regulations and management, to ensure the safety and sustainability of the eel fishery for all fishers. The fishery will reopen only when these measures have been fully implemented.

On that note, thank you. I am now ready to answer your questions.

[The Chair, Liberal, Ken McDonald]

Thank you, Minister.

Before I go to questions, I want to welcome a colleague to the fisheries and oceans committee. I don't know if he's been on it before. I don't think he has, but he might learn something today about fish. I don't think there are many fish around his riding in Toronto, but I welcome James Maloney to the committee today. I remind him to behave himself here, or he'll get in big trouble.

For our first round of questioning, we'll start off with Mr. Small for six minutes or less, please.

[Clifford Small, Conservative, Coast of Bays—Central—Notre Dame, NL]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I welcome the witnesses here today, especially the honourable minister.

Last year, the logbook data for northern cod was not analyzed. When was the last time the catch rate data for northern cod, the per-unit data from the logbooks, was analyzed?

[Annette Gibbons, Deputy Minister, Department of Fisheries and Oceans]

We'll have to come back to you. I can't answer.

[Clifford Small, Conservative, Coast of Bays—Central—Notre Dame, NL]

I submitted an Order Paper question in October on fishermen's logbook data to get per-unit catch rates for northern cod, and they have not been analyzed since 2019.

I was told it would be all analyzed for the assessment. If you had four years and it wasn't analyzed in four years and it wasn't analyzed as of October, how is that data going to be available to be used in this year's stock assessment in three short months?

[Annette Gibbons]

In the survey we're doing, we've had the science discussion, so—

[Clifford Small, Conservative, Coast of Bays—Central—Notre Dame, NL]

No, these are the logbooks that the fishermen take their time to fill out as accurately as they can, so why is that data not important to DFO? Do you not trust the fishermen? Do you not have enough budget with the doubling of the budget since 2015 and 50% more employees?

Logbook data that's four years old could have helped last year to give an increase in the quota, because the groundfish council wanted a 17,000-tonne quota and the FFAW asked for 25,000 tonnes, yet you're sitting on that data, not tabulated. The fishermen know, DFO people back home know, they tell me, that northern cod is quite plentiful, based on the catch rates.

Why has that not been used in setting the quotas since the cod came out of the critical zone in 2016?

[Annette Gibbons]

Mr. Chair, we do use various sources of data to provide our stock assessments. I will come back on the specific question of the use of this particular data series.

[Clifford Small, Conservative, Coast of Bays—Central—Notre Dame, NL]

Last year, the vessel patrol days on the nose and tail of the banks were less than half of what they would be in a normal year. Will you commit to bringing those patrol days back up, especially given the fact that the northern cod quota could go to a level where you're going to give 5% to NAFO to give foreign vessels the opportunity to direct for northern cod again? Are you going to bring those vessel patrol days back up to the standard 500 days a year?

[Diane Lebouthillier, Liberal, Gaspésie—Les-Îles-de-la-Madeleine, QC]

I have just come back from a tour of the United States where I had occasion to meet with the American coast guard. We gave mutual assurances that we would collaborate on protecting our borders from illegal fishing specifically. There is important work that will be done with the United States to protect our borders and protect ourselves from illegal fishing and vessels engaging in night fishing.

[Clifford Small, Conservative, Coast of Bays—Central—Notre Dame, NL]

Thank you, Minister Lebouthillier.

I'll turn my time over to Mr. Arnold now.

[Mel Arnold, Conservative, North Okanagan—Shuswap, BC]

Thank you, Mr. Small.

Thank you for being here, Minister.

Minister, your department was a funding partner of B.C.'s invasive mussel defence program that inspects watercraft at B.C.'s borders, but you allowed that funding to lapse last year, and that decision has directly weakened the most effective protection of B.C.'s waters against aquatic invasive species, especially zebra mussels and quagga mussels.

In 2022, your government supported the B.C. mussel defence program with $475,000. This was completely cut in 2023, and for 2024 you've announced only $90,000 for the program, a reduction of over 80%.

Why has your government abandoned B.C.'s invasive mussel defence program?

[Diane Lebouthillier, Liberal, Gaspésie—Les-Îles-de-la-Madeleine, QC]

Thank you for your question.

I can tell you that Ms. Barron, MP, sent me a letter on March 7. We had announced additional funding of more than a half million dollars on February 14 for combatting zebra and quagga mussels. I think this is a step in the right direction, but we must continue to work together and do this important work to combat invasive species, which really are a problem all over Canada.

[Mel Arnold, Conservative, North Okanagan—Shuswap, BC]

You must be aware of the costs in Ontario lakes. The British Columbia government did a study estimating that it could be up to $120 million for the province just in annual maintenance costs. Why are you continuing to expose B.C. taxpayers to these permanent costs and damages that could be prevented with a strong preventive defence program?

[Diane Lebouthillier, Liberal, Gaspésie—Les-Îles-de-la-Madeleine, QC]

We are working to combat invasive species and funds are being allocated to this. I can tell you that zebra mussels are found everywhere in Canada, in lakes, and even in Lac Saint-Jean.

[Mel Arnold, Conservative, North Okanagan—Shuswap, BC]

It's not all over Canada. It's not in the western provinces.

[Diane Lebouthillier, Liberal, Gaspésie—Les-Îles-de-la-Madeleine, QC]

Important work is being done on various species. I will let the deputy minister give you more detailed information.

[The Chair, Liberal, Ken McDonald]

Time has gone a little bit over, Mr. Arnold.

We'll now go on to Mr. Hardie for six minutes or less, please.

[Ken Hardie, Liberal, Fleetwood—Port Kells, BC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Thank you, Minister and officials, for being here.

At our last meeting, the issue of the carbon tax came up, and I was hoping that word got to you, Minister, to give us a definitive answer on the impact of the carbon tax on marine fuels. What can you tell us about that?

[Diane Lebouthillier, Liberal, Gaspésie—Les-Îles-de-la-Madeleine, QC]

Thank you for your question, Mr. Hardie.

On the subject of pollution pricing, you have been sent some very good information by our colleague, Mr. Morrissey, showing that the fuel used for fishing activities is not subject to the carbon tax. I really want to stress, as Mr. Morrissey did, that climate change is a major concern for Atlantic Canadians, Quebeckers and Pacific Canadians. At present, we are experiencing the effects of climate change on all of the oceans on the planet.

However, as I said earlier, the fuel is not subject to the carbon tax.

[Ken Hardie, Liberal, Fleetwood—Port Kells, BC]

Thank you for that answer, Minister. I hope that clears things up for the Conservative leader and a few others.

A number of us have been on this committee since 2015 or early 2016, and over that time I have to say that, as a group, this committee, with its various members, has been almost unanimous in focusing on the issue. The partisan stuff, of course, comes up every now and again, but the real focus is on doing what's best for our wild fish stocks and for the people who make a living from that and whose culture depends on it.

We have come up with any number of excellent reports with very solid recommendations. We have a concern that very few of those recommendations are ever acted on. I am wondering if, in your short time as minister, you've had the time to go back and assess the performance of the DFO in addressing the concerns that we've raised and our suggestions for how to resolve them.

[Diane Lebouthillier, Liberal, Gaspésie—Les-Îles-de-la-Madeleine, QC]

Thank you for the question.

I want to remind all my colleagues here today that I come from the Gaspé. As everyone knows, my riding is Gaspésie—Les Îles-de-la-Madeleine. I live with climate change. The fishers I meet with, whether in the Atlantic region or in Quebec, on the west coast, or even in the Arctic, are all concerned about the consequences of climate change. Even for fisheries that are doing well, like the lobster fishery, I hear concerns from the associations and the fishers.

I take into consideration all the work done by the committee. That work is important, as are the recommendations you make. I want to tell you that the work you did on foreign ownership and protecting the master owner model is really important to me. I also hear on the west coast about the importance of restoring a master owner model, and on the east coast about the importance of giving that model more teeth.

The committee's work is thorough and is accompanied by important recommendations. In the work I will be continuing to do, I am really going to take those recommendations into account.

[Ken Hardie, Liberal, Fleetwood—Port Kells, BC]

I would note that your colleagues up there have quite often been present and have heard, directly, our frustration that actions that we feel are necessary and valid are not happening, or certainly not happening quickly enough.

Minister, if you look at all the recommendations, all the things that we have studied or suggested and that have surfaced in terms of issues and resolutions, are the resources of the DFO sufficient to deal with those effectively and in a timely manner, on top of all the other things that it is also expected to do, like stock assessments, which in many cases are far behind schedule?

Does DFO have enough resources, and are those resources managed effectively?

[Diane Lebouthillier, Liberal, Gaspésie—Les-Îles-de-la-Madeleine, QC]

It is important for the department to have the necessary resources, if only for the small craft harbours. This is an important economic development tool for the fishery sector, which must also be seen as a vector of economic development. In the Maritimes, for example, there are all the products of aquaculture, like mussels and oysters. We have high-quality products. The same is true on the west coast. It is important to work in a more coordinated way.

As I said, climate change is going to present a challenge in terms of food security. There have to be people on the ground who will enable us to do our work even better. We spoke about invasive species, for example. It will be important to look into that and work even more closely with scientists and people in the fishery sector to make the best decisions possible about catches and so that our products have added value. We cannot allow ourselves to engage in food waste in the fishery sector. We have to use our products in their entirety, in the best way possible.

Last week, we provided information through the media. All wild species in the world are in danger at present, and we all share the same pantry. Forage species provide nourishment for other species, which provide us with nourishment. Our government must therefore consider the fishery sector to be a vector of economic development that will provide an income for our people and businesses and create jobs. We have high quality products and we are capable of doing even better at our department.