Fisheries Committee on April 18th, 2024

[The Chair, Liberal, Ken McDonald]

Thank you, Mr. Hanley.

We'll now go to Madam Desbiens for six minutes or less, please.

[Caroline Desbiens, Bloc, Beauport—Côte-de-Beaupré—Île d’Orléans—Charlevoix, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I would also like to thank the witnesses. It's as valuable and important as ever to have you with us.

Since Quebec is a long way from the Pacific coast, I want to thank our colleague, Mr. Hanley, for proposing this study. It will also help us understand the behaviour of Atlantic salmon. Do you have any data on Atlantic salmon, or are you more specialized in Pacific salmon?

Depending on your answers, I can adapt my next questions.

[Steve Gotch]

Mr. Chair, I'll attempt to respond, and perhaps my colleague, Mr. Shoemaker, may be able to add something.

With respect to specialization or any information I can provide on Atlantic salmon, I can confirm that at no time in recorded history have Atlantic salmon been documented either in the north Pacific, to the extent where Yukon or Alsek River origin Pacific salmon stocks would occur, or, likewise, in the Yukon River watershed or adjacent marine areas.

To the best of any information on hand or available to us, at least in the context of the north Pacific and Bering Sea, we have not identified any occurrences of Atlantic salmon in these regions, Mr. Chair.

[Wes Shoemaker]

Mr. Chair, what I might add to my colleague's answer is that we are very much in conversation with our colleagues to “compare notes” on the comprehensive approach that we are taking with respect to Pacific salmon. This has historically only been focusing on harvest-related decisions, but instead we are taking a broader and more comprehensive approach around habitat, hatcheries and harvest-related things and how we integrate and collaborate with others.

Certainly, we have made investments and we are learning a lot about the new scientific measures required to try and understand what some of the impacts of climate change are, along with perhaps a more conservation-oriented approach to how we are using salmon enhancement on the west coast.

No one thing is going to help us turn the corner with respect to the increased health and abundance of Pacific salmon; it's going to take a lot of different actions. To that end, we are learning as we go in building this very comprehensive strategy and working with partners, and I think there are lessons to be learned and shared with our colleagues on the east coast with respect to Atlantic salmon.

Again, I think there is good and close collaboration. Although we're talking about different species, I think many of the actions that are necessary will be similar.

[Caroline Desbiens, Bloc, Beauport—Côte-de-Beaupré—Île d’Orléans—Charlevoix, QC]

Thank you. That makes things clearer and gives me something to work with.

Climate change is often referred to as a problem. However, it isn't the only problem, of course. I was telling the minister the other day that climate change gets blamed for a great deal, but it didn't start yesterday. We have been talking about it for at least 30 years.

Did you anticipate the speed of climate change and how quickly it would affect our resources, or did things go a bit faster than your predecessors originally predicted? Do you have any documents to show that climate change has been studied for a long time, but that it has affected resources surprisingly quickly?

[Steve Gotch]

Mr. Chair, as far as the rate and pace of climate change goes and whether there was awareness that climate was changing through, say, large-scale global influencing factors over the past 30 years, I would answer yes. The rate and pace at which change is being observed in northern environments, in particular the Canadian Arctic, is perhaps far more accelerated than anticipated.

As for the resulting influence on fish and wildlife species, and in particular salmon, it's a complicated question and perhaps an even more complicated response. Our observation certainly over the last decade or more is that certain species of Pacific salmon are in fact finding that changes to environmental conditions, particularly in freshwater environments, are becoming more favourable. What we're seeing is the abundance of sockeye salmon increasing in southwest Yukon, as well as in central and northwestern Alaska.

On the contrary, other species of Pacific salmon seem to be faring much more poorly, for example, chinook and chum salmon.

The final point I will make with regard to influencing factors with respect to climate change and responses from Pacific salmon is that we are observing a far further eastern migration of Pacific salmon stocks through Arctic waters, to the extent that it's becoming relatively common to observe Pacific salmon showing up in the eastern Arctic and, I understand, even the northernmost reaches of the Atlantic.

If we were to predict over the coming years what might happen, new and different habitats will likely become available to Pacific salmon in the far north subarctic, and we do expect that some Pacific salmon distribution will likely change over the coming years and decades, Mr. Chair.

[The Chair, Liberal, Ken McDonald]

Thank you, Madam Desbiens.

We'll now go to Ms. Barron for six minutes or less, please.

[Lisa Marie Barron, NDP, Nanaimo—Ladysmith, BC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Thank you to the witnesses, Mr. Gotch and Mr. Shoemaker.

As we know, there are 14 Yukon nations, and 11 of them that have signed modern treaties.

I believe it was Chief Nicole Tom who was here from the Little Salmon Carmacks First Nation, who brought to us her concerns on behalf of the nation about the Yukon salmon populations of Canadian origin being at a historic all-time low. She brought to the committee some strong recommendations and steps forward.

With the news we have had since this witness, I want to go through to see if some of these factors were addressed in the steps that have been taken to date.

First, can you share what the involvement has been of first nations in these negotiations for this new agreement?

[Steve Gotch]

As far as negotiations between Canada and Alaska are concerned in regard to the establishment of the seven-year agreement, the Canadian delegation, led by me, received advice and guidance from representatives from each of the respective 11 Yukon self-governing nations, inclusive of, in particular, engagements with Chief Tom directly.

As far as some of the recommendations and advice coming forward from Yukon first nations and how those are, or perhaps are not, captured in the seven-year agreement are concerned, in my view the fundamental elements that Yukon first nations have been bringing forward to the governments of Canada and the United States form the basis of the agreement. They, namely, are about acknowledging the historic low abundance of chinook salmon in recent years through a very rigorous and, frankly, strongly committing closure of fisheries for a seven-year period. These are commercial, recreational and domestic, as well as personal use fisheries.

The significance of a seven-year closure is going to have profound effects on people throughout the Yukon River watershed, many of whom, obviously, reside in rural communities such as the community of Carmacks, Yukon, which is Chief Tom's home community.

In terms of other elements that Yukon first nations government representatives sought, one was to adopt or embrace a much more conservative approach to managing fisheries, i.e., the abundance levels at which fish stocks are considered to be self-sustaining and can provide opportunities for harvest. This seven-year agreement arguably almost doubles the conservation threshold where any fishery opportunities would be provided.

Third, and probably very importantly, the agreement acknowledges the absolute essential cultural and traditional connections between indigenous people and salmon. In any such arrangement there needs to be consideration for maintaining connections between the people and the salmon over the course of this seven-year period.

There are perhaps two final points I'd like to highlight. First is the incorporation of traditional knowledge in decision-making. A specific element of the seven-year agreement is for the parties to provide a space and a platform to receive traditional knowledge to inform future management regimes. Finally, there is the commitment to a long-term rebuilding strategy to help recover Pacific salmon stocks in the upper Yukon River watershed.

[Lisa Marie Barron, NDP, Nanaimo—Ladysmith, BC]

Thank you very much, Mr. Gotch.

One of the specific items that Chief Tom discussed is right in line with what you're talking about right now around traditional knowledge. Specifically, there was a point made around requiring the inclusion of traditional knowledge in guiding decisions when it comes to establishing, discussing and reviewing spawning escapement goals.

I am wondering if you could speak to that a little bit more.

[Steve Gotch]

Mr. Chair, yes, perhaps without getting into too many nuanced details, the seven-year agreement recently announced was the culmination of a multi-year process undertaken by the Governments of Canada and the United States to establish new conservation objectives, new spawning escapement objectives, for Canadian-origin chinook salmon stocks.

Canada's approach over the past decade has been to comprise its delegation involved with that work through, arguably, a majority of Yukon first nation government advisers, as well as representatives from the territorial government and the federal government in Yukon.

In doing so, that is one mechanism where we're creating a place and a space for, if you will, a conduit for traditional and local ecological knowledge to be brought forward as part of Canadian delegation submissions.

Second, through the international Yukon River Panel process, Canada has spearheaded the initiation of a traditional knowledge advisory committee, to be comprised of both Canadian and U.S. representatives, to put forward recommendations to the international Yukon River Panel on not only spawning escapement objectives, but also future management of the species.

[The Chair, Liberal, Ken McDonald]

Thank you.

We'll now go to Mr. Small for five minutes or less, please.

[Clifford Small, Conservative, Coast of Bays—Central—Notre Dame, NL]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Mr. Gotch, according to the Canadian Wildlife Federation, the eight biggest threats to Yukon River chinook are harvesting, climate change, barriers to upstream migration, juvenile turbine mortality, hatchery operations, disease and parasites, spawning habitat conditions and predation. This was released in 2016.

Do you agree?

[Steve Gotch]

Mr. Chair, I'm not familiar with the specific report, but those factors do seem to capture all of the elements to consider.

[Clifford Small, Conservative, Coast of Bays—Central—Notre Dame, NL]

Mr. Gotch, that information has been publicly available for eight years.

Why has it taken eight years for this government to start rebuilding measures on the Yukon River for chinook?

[Steve Gotch]

Mr. Chair, the decline of Yukon River chinook salmon has arguably occurred over a 25-year period. As early as 1999, we saw a very significant decline in abundance returning to the upper Yukon River watershed.

That was followed by a period, albeit brief, of an improvement in abundance. We saw a very rapid decline through 1999 and 2000 and then a sudden increase in abundance through perhaps 2003 up until about 2008, to the point where the perceptions at the time were that the decline was short-lived in nature and emblematic of changes in abundance of Pacific salmon over time. Post 2010, however, there has been a much more sustained continuation of declining abundance.

In 2013, on the advice of Yukon first nation governments, Fisheries and Oceans Canada began implementing temporary suspensions, followed by long-term closures of Canadian fisheries on the Yukon River. Arguably, by 2016 and 2017, U.S. federal and state management agencies followed suit because by this time, we saw that the decline was not short-lived.

[Clifford Small, Conservative, Coast of Bays—Central—Notre Dame, NL]

With these runs of Yukon River chinook being so critically low, how important is it to protect every fish?

[Steve Gotch]

Mr. Chair, with the abundance observed over the past two years, where we saw fewer than 15,000 adult fish returning to their spawning grounds in Canada—understanding that our minimum spawning threshold is 42,500, at least at the time, or 30% of minimum spawning requirements—yes, in years like that, every last fish does make a difference.

[Clifford Small, Conservative, Coast of Bays—Central—Notre Dame, NL]

Will there be any fishing for chinook on the Yukon River, in any part of that river, this summer?

[Steve Gotch]

Mr. Chair, a determination around any opportunities for fisheries will be contingent on actual abundance that we observe in season.

As far as the forecast for the 2024 season goes, it is extremely poor. We're expecting that perhaps fewer than 20,000 fish may return.

[Clifford Small, Conservative, Coast of Bays—Central—Notre Dame, NL]

Thank you, Mr. Gotch.

I'm going to turn the remainder of my time over to MP Arnold, Mr. Chair.

[The Chair, Liberal, Ken McDonald]

You have 20 seconds.

[Mel Arnold, Conservative, North Okanagan—Shuswap, BC]

Thank you, Chair.

I'd like to take a quick moment to introduce the motion that was put on notice on April 12, 2024:

Whereas the Minister of Fisheries and Oceans and the Canadian Coast Guard has declined five requests from the committee since February 6, 2024, to appear and answer questions on important matters related to her portfolio, I move:

That the committee request that the Minister of Fisheries and Oceans and the Canadian Coast Guard provide the committee with dates on which she is available to appear three times at the committee to answer questions regarding: (1) the commissioner of the environment and sustainable development’s 2023 report on monitoring marine fisheries; (2) main estimates 2024-25; and (3) the criteria used by the Department of Fisheries and Oceans to set redfish fishing quotas.

[The Chair, Liberal, Ken McDonald]

The motion has been moved.

Is there any discussion?

Mr. Kelloway.

[Mike Kelloway, Liberal, Cape Breton—Canso, NS]

I would like to put forward an amendment to the motion.

We're looking at removing “declined five requests from the committee” and replacing it with, “appeared before the committee as often as two previous Conservative fishery ministers while holding the office for less than a year”.

After the word “portfolio”, we would add “and given that the committee agreed to the subcommittee's schedule, which includes one additional meeting with the minister, and given that Conservative members chose not to ask a single question on supplementary estimates to the minister when she attended committee on the supplementary estimates, and given that the committee underscored the importance of completing important studies”.

We would remove “provide the committee with dates on which she is available to appear three times at the committee to answer questions regarding: (1) the commissioner of the environment and sustainable development's 2023 report on monitoring marine fisheries; (2) main estimates 2024-25; and (3) the criteria used by the Department of Fisheries and Oceans to set redfish fishing quotas.”

Finally, insert “work with the chair of the committee to find a suitable time to appear before the committee, in alignment with the adopted subcommittee scheduling report, to meet explicitly on the subject agreed upon in the subcommittee report, so she can surpass the previous two Conservative fishery ministers from the Harper era in attendance before the committee.”

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