Evidence of meeting #58 for Fisheries and Oceans in the 44th Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was pinnipeds.

A recording is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Robert Hardy  Fisheries Consultant, As an Individual
Kris Vascotto  Executive Director, Atlantic Groundfish Council
Danny Arsenault  Chair, Groundfish Advisory Committee, Prince Edward Island Fishermen's Association
Kenneth LeClair  Vice President, Prince Edward Island Fishermen's Association
Andrew Trites  Professor, University of British Columbia, As an Individual
Sandra Gauthier  Executive Director, Exploramer
Ken Pearce  President, Pacific Balance Pinniped Society
Matt Stabler  Director, Pacific Balance Pinniped Society

4:10 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Ken McDonald

I call this meeting to order.

Welcome to meeting number 58 of the House of Commons Standing Committee on Fisheries and Oceans.

This meeting is taking place in a hybrid format, pursuant to the House order of June 23, 2022. Before I proceed, I would like to make a few comments for the benefit of witnesses and members.

Please wait until I recognize you by name before speaking. For those participating by video conference, click on the microphone icon to activate your mike. Please mute yourself when you are not speaking. Regarding interpretation for those on Zoom, you have the choice at the bottom of your screen of either floor, English or French audio.

For those in the room, you can use the earpiece and select the desired channel. Please address all comments through the chair. Taking screenshots or photos of your screen is not permitted. The proceedings will be made available via the House of Commons website.

Finally, I remind everyone that the use of a House-approved headset is mandatory for remote participation in parliamentary proceedings. If a virtual participant is not wearing an appropriate headset, interpretation cannot be provided; therefore, that person will not be able to participate.

In accordance with the committee's routine motion concerning connection tests for witnesses, I am informing the committee that all witnesses have completed the required connection tests in advance of the meeting.

Pursuant to Standing Order 108(2) and the motion adopted on January 18, 2022, the committee is resuming its study of the ecosystem impacts and management of pinniped populations.

I'd like to welcome our first panel of guests.

By Zoom, we have Robert Hardy, fisheries consultant. Representing the Atlantic Groundfish Council, we have Kris Vascotto, executive director, by video conference. By video conference, representing the Prince Edward Island Fishermen's Association, we have Kenneth LeClair, vice-president, and Danny Arsenault, chair of the groundfish advisory committee.

Thank you for taking the time to appear today. You will each have up to five minutes for an opening statement,

I invite Mr. Hardy to begin, please, for five minutes or less.

4:10 p.m.

Robert Hardy Fisheries Consultant, As an Individual

Good afternoon.

Mr. Chairman, members of the Standing Committee on Fisheries and Oceans and other presenters, I appreciate the opportunity to speak today on the truth about capelin and its importance to the ocean ecosystem.

While there is always a push by environmental groups, ocean conservationists and animal rights activists to reduce and cease commercial fishing activity, especially for capelin, there is never any reference to predation by seals. Seals are, in fact, one of the largest predator groups that consume capelin in significant volume, much more than any commercial fishing effort.

In this case, DFO and the international scientific community agree that capelin—

4:10 p.m.

Bloc

Martin Champoux Bloc Drummond, QC

I raise a point of order, Mr. Chair.

4:10 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Ken McDonald

Hold on one second, Mr. Hardy.

4:10 p.m.

Bloc

Martin Champoux Bloc Drummond, QC

It would seem that other microphones are open in the room. The interpreters are flagging a problem with sound quality.

4:10 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Ken McDonald

I'm not getting it either. Can we have the translation checked that wasn't coming through?

Okay, we're good to go.

Mr. Hardy, please continue.

4:10 p.m.

Fisheries Consultant, As an Individual

Robert Hardy

Okay.

DFO and the international scientific community agree that capelin are a primary prey specie and food for all seals, because capelin are abundantly available over a large geographic area and can be found both inshore and offshore during different seasons. Capelin are also a small fish that can be consumed whole, are rich in oil and have eggs, all of which are a preference of pinnipeds.

DFO estimates that harp seals—one of six seal species in Atlantic Canada—consume upwards of 1,000 metric tons of capelin annually, in comparison to 24,000 metric tons of commercial quota in 2022. This accounts for just 2.5% of the estimated harp seal consumption, and that does not include the other five seal species.

I use DFO-estimated daily consumption for harp seals, which is the lowest of any country, at 3.3 kilos. The average number of pieces of capelin per kilo is 60 pieces, so in one day, when capelin are available, a single harp seal can consume 198 fish. If that were extrapolated over a million seals, it could be 198 million. Keep in mind that the DFO estimate for consumption is less than half of the other numbers.

The limit reference point for capelin has recently been set at 640 kilotons, or 640,000 metric tons. Last year, the capelin biomass index was estimated at 262 kilotons, and it is expected to be at or above that level this year.

A decision to impose a moratorium on the commercial capelin fishery because of mounting pressure from environmentalists that have no commitment to industry or to the coastal communities of Canada or their people is unjustifiable. I suggest that removing 24,000 metric tons of quota, representing 2.5% of harp seal consumption, will do little to increase capelin stocks. Using the quota for last year of 24.7 million kilograms, if we look at the population of harp seals of 7.6 million, it would take less than one day to consume that entire quota.

Our friends in Iceland continue to have prolific, bountiful fishery resources. Iceland closed its capelin fishery in 2018 and caught only 25% of its quota that year, or 40,000 tonnes. In 2019 and 2020, its capelin fishery remained closed. The Icelandic maritime research institute proposed that the capelin catch in 2022-23 would not exceed 275,000 tonnes, which was an increase of 57,000 tonnes from their initial advisory in the fall. This also meant that the Norwegian quota increased from 43,000 tonnes to 48,000 tonnes. Iceland’s limit reference point suggests that 400,000 tonnes of capelin should be left in the water.

What are the differences between Norway’s and Iceland’s fisheries, apart from the significant difference in quotas and that both countries fish much harder than Canada? They do appear to have a more reliable science program and, notably, Iceland has practically no seal predation. It has only 25,000 animals of all species, and Norway has not documented a seal invasion since the mid-1990s. Its predominant harp seal species remains further north and entirely offshore.

In closing, I include a media quote from a senior DFO scientist: “For years, fishermen have been told it’s fishing that drives populations.” The article went on, “He says DFO manages fishermen, not fish, so it’s only natural fishermen might consider seals as a competitive fishery.” He called it “predator envy”.

From my lifetime of experience and perspective, there is no envy in the current state of Canada's fishery or its science program. It's time for real action, not endless debate.

Thank you for your valuable time. I look forward to answering any questions.

4:15 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Ken McDonald

Thank you, Mr. Hardy.

When you said your remarks would be around capelin and capelin stock, I was reminded that on Canada Day last year, I visited a place up in Witless Bay, and they had a capelin-eating contest. I won first place, because I ate my capelin faster than anyone else, but now I don't think I can keep up with a seal, according to the numbers you just gave.

4:15 p.m.

Some hon. members

Oh, oh!

4:15 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Ken McDonald

I held my own that day, though.

I'll go now to Dr. Vascotto for five minutes or less, please.

4:15 p.m.

Dr. Kris Vascotto Executive Director, Atlantic Groundfish Council

Thank you for the opportunity to participate in this meeting.

Discussions on the impacts of pinniped populations often focus on the direct impacts on commercial species. Images of eviscerated cod at the bottom of coves or stomach contents from harvested animals fill our minds.

We must remind ourselves that pinniped impacts are much broader and extend far beyond direct predation. Seals eat fish. Seals eat crab. Seals eat an awful lot of things, to the tune of 1000 to 2000 kilograms per animal, per year. Every item a pinniped consumes is at the expense of some other component of the marine ecosystem. More pinnipeds mean more impacts.

For instance, last week, DFO Newfoundland announced that capelin populations were at critically low levels, driven by challenges in adult survival. Capelin are a key prey for an array of animals, from the iconic northern cod through to cetaceans and pinnipeds.

However, with eight million harp seals sharing the same marine space, capelin have failed to recover, despite a near absence of fishing. This cascades directly into stalled northern cod recovery and the impaired performance of other groundfish stocks.

Is this because seals are eating all the cod? Likely not. Could the eight million metric tons of prey, including capelin, consumed by harp seals annually be preventing the recovery of capelin stocks, thus impairing cod production? This is far more likely.

We hear of other forage fish stocks, such as mackerel and herring, experiencing prolonged periods of low productivity, with many subject to a moratorium. Again, we have a common thread. These forage species are the preferred prey of pinniped populations at historical highs and are being cropped off before they reach other ecosystem components or even sexual maturity. Food webs have been forced to restructure to new and lower productivity states for many commercially important fish species.

The direct and indirect impacts of pinnipeds are easily observed throughout Atlantic Canada. Most groundfish stocks demonstrate higher natural mortality today than in any previous time period, and diets demonstrate an absence of diet items also preferentially selected by pinnipeds, namely large, mid-trophic level forage species such as herring and mackerel. Their absence is manifested in groundfish populations as lower condition estimates, poorer growth, lowered reproductive output and high levels of natural mortality.

We cannot neglect direct impacts. Pinnipeds have annual distributions that strongly overlap with depleted fish stocks. Satellite tagging has shown clear overlap with seasonal cod aggregations. This evidence is later bolstered by direct diet analysis and modelling work, proving the link between pinniped consumption and a high natural mortality in dwindling cod populations in the southern Gulf of St. Lawrence, creating a prognosis of extirpation even in an absence of human-induced mortality.

It is not just marine ecosystems that are vulnerable. Entire riverine food webs can be disrupted by the arrival of a seal herd feeding heavily on whatever fish are locally available, including depleted Atlantic salmon smolts and adults. The arrival of a seal herd becomes synonymous with the denuding of local populations of salmon, trout, sucker and whitefish, and local residents see and will speak of this.

Clearly, the impact of a novel and aggressive piscivore will no doubt trickle down through the entire system to some new and unexpected stable state far different from where it began. Our challenge is to translate pinniped populations to ecosystem impacts. Comparing pinniped consumption with other ecosystem components at a landscape level misrepresents the problem, as the greatest impacts are often local, driven by overlap in both time and space.

Disentangling the role of pinnipeds in the ecosystem means a thorough appreciation of diets and distribution across the entire year, and not just within short snapshots. Only then can we speak with certainty about the role they play, how they may impact surrounding trophic levels, and how the system may respond to lower pinniped abundance.

Our current understanding is heavily restricted both spatially and temporally, creating severe biases in interpretation. For instance, how can we speak to pinniped diets, when sampling is heavily spatially biased to represent only a small portion of the pinniped herd itself?

We must acknowledge that if pinniped consumption were reduced from current levels, other ecosystem components would have additional resources, and some would perhaps experience growth. Cod is an example. Determining the strength of this response is predicated on precision around our understanding of pinniped impacts and the greater ecosystem.

Finally, if we are to accept that the role of pinnipeds in the marine ecosystem will continue at current population levels, we must accept that many of our fish stocks will also persist at lower total levels and productivity than historically observed and will be unable to rebuild to historic levels under any conditions.

This period of pinniped overabundance now represents the new normal. Stocks cannot be rebuilt with the current ecosystem structure favouring pinnipeds. This must be incorporated into rational, modern reference points and rebuilding plans commensurate with the current expectations of productivity, as many depleted fish stocks may actually be considered fully rebuilt under the current level of predation and productivity offered by pinniped populations at current levels.

Thank you again for this opportunity, and I look forward to addressing any questions from this esteemed committee.

4:20 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Ken McDonald

Thank you. You were right on time.

Now we'll go to the Prince Edward Island Fishermen's Association. I don't know if it's one statement, or if both of you are going to have part of the statement each to make up the five minutes.

I see Mr. Arsenault is turning on his mike.

4:20 p.m.

Danny Arsenault Chair, Groundfish Advisory Committee, Prince Edward Island Fishermen's Association

Yes. We're going to split it.

4:20 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Ken McDonald

Okay. Whoever is starting can start off when you like, and you have five minutes between you.

4:20 p.m.

Chair, Groundfish Advisory Committee, Prince Edward Island Fishermen's Association

Danny Arsenault

Good afternoon, and thanks for the opportunity to be here. I'm Danny Arsenault, representing PEIFA, and Kenneth will be taking over for the last part of this.

The overpopulation of seals in Atlantic Canada is a grave concern of ours. It's something that membership and both Ken and I are very passionate about addressing. We have 1,275 independent core fish harvesters who fish a variety of species, namely lobster, crab, pelagic fish and groundfish, on P.E.I.

This will be my 50th year on the water fishing. I bought my fleet when I was 18 years old. At the time, we fished from ice out until we couldn't fish any longer, later in the fall. We didn't stop fishing. We had something to fish, all different stocks.

Today, I'm a lobster fisherman. Everything else is gone; there are no more fisheries for us, not even our bait fishery. We always caught our own bait. Today we buy our bait. In a two-month season this year, it cost me $40,000 to buy bait. I never had to buy bait before; I could always catch my own.

We have some photos—I don't know if they're being distributed—showing you the destruction that seals have caused to our fisheries. Some of these photos were shared in 2012 when I appeared before the Senate committee in Halifax as a representative of the PEIFA.

The fish are directly impacted by the overpopulation of grey and harp seals in the southern Gulf. Back 11 years ago, we thought that we were at the eleventh hour, and everybody around the table said the same: “It has to be now. We have to control this population.” I can't help but wonder what our groundfish, pelagic stocks and stuff would look like right now, had that happened.

Our government has been scared, bullied—whatever you want to call it—to not take any action on seal populations, because of pressure and misinformation from certain NGO groups and the implications of the Marine Mammal Protection Act, which could impact exports to the U.S.

I recently read an article that came out of Texas. The American government currently has a bounty on wild hogs. They're causing havoc down there in the agriculture business. What they have been doing is they have a bounty on them to get as many out of the way as they can, and I see that they have also introduced a bait made with warfarin to control them. They are bringing them under control because of what's happening.

It's same scenario as we have with seals. I don't understand how one country can penalize another for doing what they are also doing themselves. This is unjust.

We're here today, showing the impacts of seals through pictures and experiences on the water. We need the story reflected to others in the public and to the groups and countries trying to downplay what is really happening to our fish stocks. In the past, we've been told that it's the fishers' fault. The government can't keep falling back on that response. We haven't had a fishery for 31 years.

We can't keep hiding the seals any longer, and that includes talking about them. We desperately need to bring the seal herd down to a manageable level—this needs to be step one—and then work on a realistic and effective hunt so that we can maintain and control the seal populations as we go forward.

We did not see attacks on halibut, for example, until about 10 years ago. As our other stocks disappeared, they turned to something else, and they were attacking halibut, taking them off our hooks, tearing them off. Some fish are worth up to $1,500, and when you haul it up and it's destroyed, it's not very encouraging. These vacuum cleaners of the sea eat 40 to 50 pounds of fish a day, and there are millions of them. Do the math and see where our stocks are.

What bothers and worries me more about all this is that they're not done yet. We have two stocks left in the Gulf, crab and lobster, and we already have information and proof of what they're starting to do there. You can see lobster claws from big lobsters lying on the shore. They knock the claws off them and eat the lobsters. As for crab, they have as many as 150 in their stomachs. This is happening. While we're talking, this is happening, and, if someone doesn't step up to do something, our coastal communities are gone. They're done. We won't have anything left.

It's very important that something gets done now, before everything is destroyed.

I guess that ends it, and I'll pass it on to Kenneth. If you have more time at the end, I would really love you to be able to go down, just to give you an example of what I've seen happen in the last 50 years.

Thank you.

4:25 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Ken McDonald

Thank you for that, but the five minutes are up. I guess Mr. LeClair will have to try to get his statement out in a question or two along the way.

4:25 p.m.

Chair, Groundfish Advisory Committee, Prince Edward Island Fishermen's Association

Danny Arsenault

I'm sorry about that.

4:25 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Ken McDonald

That's all right.

We'll now go to questions, of course, by the members.

I will remind members that the clerk has advised me that we can go until 6 p.m. That means we'll have 55 minutes for each hour, so we'll split it down the middle.

We'll go now to Mr. Small, for six minutes or less, please.

4:30 p.m.

Conservative

Clifford Small Conservative Coast of Bays—Central—Notre Dame, NL

Thank you, Mr. Chair. I'd like to thank all the witnesses for being here today and taking time out of their busy schedules to help us out with this very important study.

My first question is for Mr. Hardy.

Just briefly, Mr. Hardy, what's the biggest impediment to carrying out a meaningful pinniped harvest?

4:30 p.m.

Fisheries Consultant, As an Individual

Robert Hardy

The biggest impediment would be the marketability of the products and having access to markets to encourage full utilization. At the current time, there are not adequate markets for the resource or the quota that's available.

4:30 p.m.

Conservative

Clifford Small Conservative Coast of Bays—Central—Notre Dame, NL

It has to provide for the full utilization of harvested pinnipeds.

4:30 p.m.

Fisheries Consultant, As an Individual

Robert Hardy

I didn't get your full question there, Mr. Small.

4:30 p.m.

Conservative

Clifford Small Conservative Coast of Bays—Central—Notre Dame, NL

Oh, I'm sorry.

What products have been developed to provide for a full utilization of harvested pinnipeds? What products are out there?

4:30 p.m.

Fisheries Consultant, As an Individual

Robert Hardy

Well, if you're going to have full utilization of pinnipeds, no matter the species, you're going to deal with the skin, you're going to deal with the fat, and you're going to deal with the meat and bone component.

Currently, there is a small industry for fur and leather. There is experimentation going on with the meat for a variety of products, and some of them are very exciting. Of course, we're all aware of the omega-3 component, which is the best omega-3 available in the world from any species, for a number of reasons, but there needs to be more investment into the product and within the industry to create full utilization.

4:30 p.m.

Conservative

Clifford Small Conservative Coast of Bays—Central—Notre Dame, NL

To your knowledge, has the current government done anything to market these products?