Evidence of meeting #88 for Fisheries and Oceans in the 44th Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was enforcement.

A recording is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Adam Burns  Assistant Deputy Minister, Programs Sector, Department of Fisheries and Oceans
Doug Wentzell  Regional Director General, Maritimes Region, Department of Fisheries and Oceans
Neil Davis  Regional Director, Fisheries Management Branch, Pacific Region, Department of Fisheries and Oceans
Lloyd Slaney  Acting Director General, Conservation and Protection, Department of Fisheries and Oceans

12:05 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Ken McDonald

Welcome.

Pursuant to Standing Order 108(2) and the motion adopted by the committee on January 18, 2022, the committee is commencing its study on illegal, unreported and unregulated fishing.

Joining us today, from the Department of Fisheries and Oceans, we have Mr. Adam Burns back again as assistant deputy minister of the programs sector; Mr. Marc Mes, director general of fleet and maritime services at the Canadian Coast Guard, here in person; Doug Wentzell, regional director general of the Maritimes region, by video conference; Mr. Lloyd Slaney, acting director general of conservation and protection, by video conference; and Mr. Neil Davis, regional director of the fisheries management branch, Pacific region, by video conference.

Welcome to the committee.

Mr. Burns, you have five minutes for your opening statement.

12:05 p.m.

Adam Burns Assistant Deputy Minister, Programs Sector, Department of Fisheries and Oceans

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Good afternoon, everyone.

My name is Adam Burns. I'm the assistant deputy minister of the Fisheries and Oceans programs sector.

Mr. Chair, I'll note that Yves Richard, director of conservation and protection for the Quebec region has also joined us virtually.

I'd like to begin by acknowledging that the land on which we gather is the traditional territory of the Algonquin and Anishinabe people.

My colleagues and I appreciate the opportunity to appear before this committee regarding your study of illegal, unregulated and unreported fishing, or IUU fishing.

I'd like to start by clarifying that the term “illegal, unreported and unregulated fishing” is the general term that the Food and Agriculture Organization of the United Nations uses to describe a wide variety of fishing activities carried out in violation of laws and national and international obligations, or in the absence of monitoring. In that context, we use the term to describe violations of international obligations on the high seas and foreign vessel incursions into the 200‑mile exclusive economic zones.

Canada has strong controls against the threat of incursion into Canadian fisheries waters by foreign vessels, including co-operative monitoring of vessel activities across federal departments through the marine security operations centres and active patrols by the department's fisheries aerial surveillance and enforcement program and by fishery officers who, every day, in our coastal communities, monitor across Canada.

The department's fishery officers are mandated to enforce the Fisheries Act and associated regulations, as well as the Coastal Fisheries Protection Act. That includes conducting inspections to verify compliance and taking appropriate enforcement action when individuals are fishing without a Fisheries and Oceans Canada-issued authorization.

Fishery officers work with other federal partners and local law enforcement as necessary to ensure safe and orderly fisheries management and when they become aware of violations outside the scope of legal conservation and protection authorities.

Our oceans, however, are connected and IUU fishing is a significant threat to the world's marine resources. It can impact Canadians in many ways, including the potential for direct interception of migratory species, such as salmon and tuna, and trade in IUU caught seafood can undermine the legitimate seafood sector. IUU fishing can also result in harmful impacts to marine ecosystems and to the economic and food security of developing countries and vulnerable coastal communities that rely on small-scale fisheries for survival.

We know that IUU fishing can be connected to global organized crime networks, and it is often associated with forced labour and the mistreatment of crews.

Canada plays an active role in the global fight against IUU fishing on three fronts: making international rules more effective, enforcing those rules, and forming partnerships to bring concrete solutions to the problem.

Canada has leadership roles in seven regional fisheries management organizations, or RFMOs, which collaboratively manage fisheries resources in specific areas of the high seas. These include the critical work of strengthening, monitoring, control and surveillance measures. Through these organizations, Canada has led the implementation of key new measures within these RFMOs, including the introduction of high seas inspection authorities, greater oversight of the transshipment of fish at sea, and the banning of shark finning and plastic pollution.

Canada works to enforce these rules by conducting compliance and enforcement activities in international waters. These include monitoring from sea, air and space. This past summer, Canada enhanced its monitoring of international waters by conducting its first high seas inspection operations in the north Pacific, patrolling over 12,000 nautical miles and detecting 58 violations of international agreements and over 3,000 illegally harvested shark fins. Given the large scale of high seas fleets operating in the north Pacific and the risk that IUU fishing poses to vulnerable stocks, including migrating Pacific salmon, Canada is working closely with its partners, including the United States, Japan and Korea, to uphold the rule of law at sea.

IUU fishing is a major threat to developing nations, which typically don't have the resources to monitor fishing activities in their national waters, let alone on the high seas, or to enforce laws.

We are actively working to strengthen the capacities of those countries.

Canada recently announced the launch of its Indo-Pacific strategy. As part of this strategy, Canada will establish a new shared ocean fund, which will invest $84 million over five years within the Indo-Pacific region by increasing maritime co-operation, supporting a healthy marine environment and promoting measures against IUU fishing. This fund will enable partnerships with world-leading non-governmental organizations that can help overcome the complex jurisdictional challenges posed by IUU fishing.

The government recently announced that Canada will become a founding partner of the joint analytical cell, a group of non-governmental organizations that will work together to deliver high-quality fisheries intelligence, data analysis and capacity support alongside authorities in developing countries.

Canada has implemented its dark vessel detection platform and state-of-the-art satellite surveillance system to support vulnerable developing states in the detection and tracking of potential IUU fishing vessels. The DVD platform is currently helping protect the Galápagos Islands in partnership with Ecuador, and is deployed to support 15 Pacific island states.

Under the Indo-Pacific strategy, the dark vessel detection platform is being expanded to support the Philippines to support their effort to detect and track vessels that may be in engaged in IUU fishing, and to strengthen their maritime security.

12:10 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Ken McDonald

Thank you, Mr. Burns. We've gone over the five minutes allotted.

We'll get to rounds of questioning. Hopefully, anything you didn't get to say will come out in that.

We'll now go to Mr. Small for six minutes or less, please.

12:10 p.m.

Conservative

Clifford Small Conservative Coast of Bays—Central—Notre Dame, NL

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

It was great to hear Mr. Burns report on the tremendous work the department has been doing globally. However, right in our own backyard, we've had numerous lobster fishers who have reached out to members of this committee, like me, Mr. Perkins, Mr. Kelloway, the Minister of Fisheries, as well as to the officials we have here today, about last summer's out-of-season lobster fishery in area 34, which was being conducted in an unregulated fashion and not in accordance with standard conservation measures.

My question is for Mr. Wentzell.

Mr. Wentzell, how many complaints do you have documented? How many charges were laid? How many convictions have occurred as a result of the lobster fishery in area 34, particularly in St. Mary's Bay, this past summer? Do you have those numbers available, Mr. Wentzell?

12:10 p.m.

Doug Wentzell Regional Director General, Maritimes Region, Department of Fisheries and Oceans

I do.

Last summer, in area 34, and particularly in southwest Nova Scotia, we put a lot of effort into making sure that the fishery was managed. We seized over 1,200 traps. I can also report that we seized 3 vessels. We conducted 15 arrests, and we have six active investigations.

We're currently working to move those files forward. While we don't have prosecutorial outcomes at this point, that work is under way on all of those case files.

12:15 p.m.

Conservative

Clifford Small Conservative Coast of Bays—Central—Notre Dame, NL

Thank you, Mr. Wentzell.

Marshall II outlined that moderate livelihood fisheries are to provide for the necessities of life. It's been widely reported that semi-trailers were loaded onto piers in St. Mary's Bay, and this was overseen by biker gangs. Does this sound like the principles of Marshall II were being followed?

Mr. Wentzell.

12:15 p.m.

Regional Director General, Maritimes Region, Department of Fisheries and Oceans

Doug Wentzell

What I can say is that any fishing activity that's not authorized by the Minister of Fisheries and Oceans is subject to enforcement. We work closely with our partners, whether it's the Canadian Coast Guard, RCMP or other agencies, to work to address any incidents of unauthorized fishing.

12:15 p.m.

Conservative

Clifford Small Conservative Coast of Bays—Central—Notre Dame, NL

Thank you, Mr. Wentzell.

Does your department know how many lobsters were harvested in St. Mary's Bay this past summer, where they were sold and if this catch has been accounted for in stock management?

12:15 p.m.

Regional Director General, Maritimes Region, Department of Fisheries and Oceans

Doug Wentzell

We are working with indigenous partners on reporting coming out of the FSC fishery. There are typically delays in those catch reports coming into departments, similar to the commercial fishery; but that's a key priority for us, to make sure that those removals are accounted for, in addition to the observations that our fishery officers have on and off the water.

12:15 p.m.

Conservative

Clifford Small Conservative Coast of Bays—Central—Notre Dame, NL

Thank you, Mr. Wentzell, for that answer.

Tim Kerr, the director of enforcement in Nova Scotia, told CBC in July that DFO had the capability to monitor the compliance of lobster fisherman in southwest Nova Scotia. If that were the case, given that DFO typically stringently enforces the law, were any directives issued by the minister, or to the minister by other government departments? As Mr. Burns stated in his preamble, your department works with other federal partners. Were any directives issued that would prohibit RCMP employees from doing their job?

12:15 p.m.

Regional Director General, Maritimes Region, Department of Fisheries and Oceans

Doug Wentzell

I can confirm, Mr. Chair, that there were no such directives issued in the region. In fact, we meet with other enforcement partners on a regular basis to help ensure that we're bringing all of our intelligence and capacity to bear on the management of all fisheries.

I can confirm that there were no such directives issued.

12:15 p.m.

Conservative

Clifford Small Conservative Coast of Bays—Central—Notre Dame, NL

Thank you.

After eight years of this Liberal government, is it possible that it has come to a point where the hands of DFO's C and P are so tied that the PMO, because of its directives, is inadvertently supporting IUU lobster fishing and organized crime? I ask because that's what we're getting from stakeholders in that region. It has been put to us many times. I have numerous emails outlining that; those are the thoughts of the lobster industry stakeholders in southwest Nova.

12:15 p.m.

Regional Director General, Maritimes Region, Department of Fisheries and Oceans

Doug Wentzell

Sorry. My colleague may want to jump in.

12:15 p.m.

Assistant Deputy Minister, Programs Sector, Department of Fisheries and Oceans

Adam Burns

I can, for a moment, just to reiterate what my colleague, Doug Wentzell, did say. We can confirm that no direction was given to the conservation and protection organization. Their responsibility is to enforce the Fisheries Act, and, in instances where unauthorized fishing is occurring, they take the appropriate action.

12:15 p.m.

Conservative

Clifford Small Conservative Coast of Bays—Central—Notre Dame, NL

I have a question on the 200-mile-limit patrolling.

Prior to 2015, 786 patrol days were provided by DFO vessels in NAFO waters near the 200-mile limit. After eight years of this current Liberal government, how many patrol days were provided for DFO vessels in that area of the 200-mile limit, the nose and tail of the Grand Banks, in this past year?

12:15 p.m.

Assistant Deputy Minister, Programs Sector, Department of Fisheries and Oceans

Adam Burns

Mr. Chair, we will have to return with a written response to that question.

12:15 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Ken McDonald

That would be great.

Thank you, Mr. Small. There are only four seconds left, so your six minutes has expired.

We will now go to Mr. Morrissey, for six minutes or less, please.

12:15 p.m.

Liberal

Bobby Morrissey Liberal Egmont, PE

Thank you, Chair.

I believe I will be sharing my time with Mr. Cormier or Mr. Kelloway.

I have one question. One of the regulating bodies that plays a big part in determining whether illegal fishing occurs and the sale of that product is the buyer and the processor.

The buyers and the processors of lobster and crab are provincially regulated. Am I correct, Mr. Burns?

12:20 p.m.

Assistant Deputy Minister, Programs Sector, Department of Fisheries and Oceans

Adam Burns

Yes. That's correct.

12:20 p.m.

Liberal

Bobby Morrissey Liberal Egmont, PE

Could you advise the committee on this? I ask because that's where they are controlled, whether you're a first nation or a commercial fisher. There's no value in ignoring the rules and participating in what would be considered an illegal activity if there's not a buyer for the product. The buyer is only a provincially licensed buyer or a provincially licensed processor.

What steps have the provinces taken with the federal department to put penalties in place that would ensure that activity stops there—which would go a long way, probably well over 90%, towards curbing illegal activity, whether by a first nation or a commercial entity?

Could you comment?

12:20 p.m.

Assistant Deputy Minister, Programs Sector, Department of Fisheries and Oceans

Adam Burns

I'm sorry. I wouldn't be able to speak to the specific measures that have been implemented by provincial governments.

12:20 p.m.

Liberal

Bobby Morrissey Liberal Egmont, PE

Sure. I was simply asking you to advise the committee on any discussions that are taking place between the federal government and the provinces to ensure that they step up and do what they have constitutional jurisdiction to do.

12:20 p.m.

Assistant Deputy Minister, Programs Sector, Department of Fisheries and Oceans

Adam Burns

In particular, I can speak to ongoing work with provincial counterparts related to addressing the unreported cash sales issue—predominantly in the lobster fishery—to ensure that all lobster catches are being reported to the department and that the provinces are then able to track the onward movement of that product in the supply chain.

12:20 p.m.

Liberal

Bobby Morrissey Liberal Egmont, PE

Could you briefly provide a little more detail to the committee in writing? Are the provinces aware of this, and are they prepared to take the action that they have the authority to do, to ensure that this does not continue?

With that, Chair, I expect to get a written answer to the committee. I will turn my time over.

12:20 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Ken McDonald

Mr. Cormier.