Fisheries Committee on Feb. 1st, 2024

[Prof. Naiomi Metallic]

—but there certainly are issues.

[Mike Kelloway, Liberal, Cape Breton—Canso, NS]

C and P officers are doing a very tough job. I've met many of them, and they're just top-of-the-line professionals.

I'm wondering if, based on your conversations with stakeholders and with first nations no matter where they are in Atlantic Canada, you've heard of any interesting models that may help C and P but also help first nations writ large, and the fishery writ large, in terms of enforcement.

Maybe “enforcement” is not the right word. Maybe I'd be struggling for the word there.

[Prof. Naiomi Metallic]

Not having a clear recollection of exactly when this conversation was, I think it goes back to this idea of collaborating. If Mi'kmaq and Wolastoqey first nations were seen as having a role, seen as having a management role, and that management role was seen to be collaborative or in partnership with C and P officers, maybe there could be training, collaboration, joint work, shared information or data sharing. I do think these are opportunities to work together.

My home community of Listuguj does have a rangers program. We have had it for about 20-plus years. I think they do work with local enforcement. There's a relationship. A lot of it is about collaboration and relationship building, but I think it requires the change in perspective of seeing a partnership with indigenous nations as opposed to their being just simply stakeholders in this.

[Mike Kelloway, Liberal, Cape Breton—Canso, NS]

Thank you very much.

I have about 30 seconds left, and I'd like to go to Mr. Young.

Traceability is something that we've seen as a big issue with IUU. You mentioned in your opening remarks technology and data, and we've heard about the use of e-logbooks, which may very well be a recommendation...I'm not sure. Are there other technologies that you would recommend that DFO implement?

Technology is absolutely going to be a necessity and our friend here. I'm wondering if you could unpack that in five seconds or less, or maybe you could provide that in writing.

[Mark Young]

In five seconds or less, really quickly, it was really interesting during our global workshop last year in Halifax that we had someone from NOAA Fisheries in the U.S. who talked about AI in electronic monitoring, so AI is another area of technology that might be of increasing use.

It's great to be able to see that in a single jurisdictional type of fishery. It might be a little easier to implement. Where the problem gets hard is in multijurisdictional fisheries such as in the Pacific region, where you have dozens of distant water fishing nations fishing on the high seas and in coastal state waters and trying to implement a traceability system that addresses all those particular issues.

AI is an interesting aspect, but it's probably a long way off, especially for developing countries.

[The Chair, Liberal, Ken McDonald]

Thank you, Mr. Kelloway.

That concludes our first hour of testimony and questioning.

I want to say a huge thank you to our witnesses, who have appeared both in person and online, for sharing their knowledge with the committee today on this very important study.

Again, we'll switch out from our current crowd here, and we'll go to our next lot.

We'll suspend for a moment.

[The Chair, Liberal, Ken McDonald]

Could we get everybody to the table so we can get started with our second round?

I'm going to cut some of the opening remarks a bit short.

I would now like to welcome our witnesses. On Zoom, representing the Canadian Coast Guard, we have Marc Mes, director general, fleet and maritime services. In person, from the Department of Fisheries and Oceans, we have Adam Burns, assistant deputy minister, programs sector; and Brent Napier, acting director general, conservation and protection.

Thank you for taking the time to be here today, as you've already appeared on this study.

I understand that you are ready for the rounds of questions without opening remarks.

We will go to Mr. Arnold for six minutes or less, please.

[Mel Arnold, Conservative, North Okanagan—Shuswap, BC]

I was preparing to hear opening remarks, but I guess I will start out with Mr. Burns.

We have heard that there are decreases in the patrols, particularly off of the east coast of Canada, with as much as a 30% reduction in patrols and matching declining numbers of boardings or inspections. Can you provide any details as to why that is?

[Adam Burns, Assistant Deputy Minister, Programs Sector, Department of Fisheries and Oceans]

Thanks for the question, Mr. Chair, but I'll pass it to Marc Mes from the Coast Guard.

[Marc Mes, Director General, Fleet and Maritime Services, Canadian Coast Guard]

Thank you very much, Mr. Chairman.

You are correct. There has been a reduction with regard to the patrols in the NAFO region in Atlantic Canada over the last two years, primarily due to the fact that our ships are now going through vessel life extension, which is in anticipation for the new arrival of vessels. To extend those vessels, we've had to take some vessels out of service and, due to some lengthy steel work and additional work, that has caused us to have a reduction in the number of days when we are present.

We do have a third vessel that also does provide a level of support, but unfortunately, with an aging fleet, it also went through some mechanical issues. Therefore, those days have been reduced. When we get both of those vessels back on to the NAFO in the next year or so, we'll be back up to our full 600 days per year.

[Mel Arnold, Conservative, North Okanagan—Shuswap, BC]

Thank you for that, Mr. Mes.

Would the bad actors, the foreign vessels and Canadian vessels, potentially, that may be interested in IUU operations, be aware of the reduced patrols?

[Adam Burns]

Mr. Chair, I'll answer that question for you—and thanks again for the question.

Our level of coverage is ultimately reported to NAFO. At the same time, other contracting parties are also engaged in enforcement activities in the NRA, and we have other enforcement approaches that go beyond simply vessel presence.

[Mel Arnold, Conservative, North Okanagan—Shuswap, BC]

The question was, would the nefarious bad actors be aware of those reduced activities?

[Adam Burns]

All contracting parties report their various enforcement activity hours to NAFO. It's after the fact, not before the fact, but it is indeed something that is reported.

[Mel Arnold, Conservative, North Okanagan—Shuswap, BC]

Would they have known that DFO was short on vessels for patrols? Is there public reporting, basically, or would there be public information available that would...?

[Brent Napier, Acting Director General, Conservation and Protection, Department of Fisheries and Oceans]

Yes, the reporting is part of the compliance report, which is a year behind, so they wouldn't know in advance that there would be less detection. The other piece is that they do run their own radar, so they could tell if there was a patrol vessel in the vicinity.

[Mel Arnold, Conservative, North Okanagan—Shuswap, BC]

They would know that there were fewer vessels in the area—more opportunity for them to become bad actors.

Was this a budget issue, a personnel issue or was this simply that the minister or successive ministers—because we've had six over the last eight years—haven't made vessel readiness and procurement a priority?

[Adam Burns]

I'll pass that to my colleague Marc Mes.

[Marc Mes]

The vessel life extension program is a well-thought-out program that helps us get to where we need to be in the arrival of the new vessels. It is planned. It is working well with PSPC as we identify the shipyards to deal with some of these mitigating issues with our ships and make sure they're ready. At the same time, we prioritize, reassess and move vessels around to address some of the program deliveries and gaps that we have across all of our programs.

[Mel Arnold, Conservative, North Okanagan—Shuswap, BC]

Have DFO and the Canadian Coast Guard been able to operate all planned patrol missions, or have some or any been curtailed because of staff shortages?

[Marc Mes]

We had some during COVID, of course. There were some issues with regard to crewing and some of the program delivery, but once those measures were put in place to mitigate that on board our ships, we were able to deliver programs. There are always, at certain times, some crewing issues, particularly in some of those key areas like engineering, but we look at moving those engineers across the country to ensure that we have program delivery. However, there was nothing of a significant length of time, from a crewing perspective, in program delivery.

[Mel Arnold, Conservative, North Okanagan—Shuswap, BC]

Mr. Perkins, do you want to take 40 seconds?

[Rick Perkins, Conservative, South Shore—St. Margarets, NS]

Sure. Thank you.

Again, to our witness from the Coast Guard, just as a follow-up, you said the programs on vessel replacement were going well. The polar-class 1 icebreaker is required, obviously, to help with the patrols of the north. It was announced 16 years ago—in 2008—but we have yet to finalize the design. I wouldn't call that going well. Would you?

[Marc Mes]

The design is well under way with Seaspan's Vancouver Shipyards, with the goal of having the polar delivered in 2030, which would be in line with the end of life for the Louis St-Laurent and some of the other vessels. It is a process in designing one of the most advanced polar icebreakers in the Arctic, so that's where we are in that process. However, we are on track for a 2030 delivery with Vancouver Shipyards. As a matter of fact, a prototype is currently under way as we work with the shipyard on the design and build of that vessel.

[The Chair, Liberal, Ken McDonald]

Thank you, Mr. Perkins.

We'll now go to Mr. Kelloway for six minutes or less, please.