Fisheries Committee on Feb. 6th, 2024

[The Vice-Chair, Conservative, Mel Arnold]

I call this meeting to order.

Good afternoon, everyone. Welcome to meeting number 96 of the House of Commons Standing Committee on Fisheries and Oceans. This meeting is taking place in a hybrid format, pursuant to the Standing Orders.

Before we proceed, I would like to make a few comments for the benefit of the witnesses and members.

Please wait until I recognize you by name before speaking. For those participating by video conference, click on the microphone icon to activate your mic, and please mute yourself when you are not speaking.

For interpretation for those on Zoom, you have the choice at the bottom of your screen of either floor, English or French. For those in the room, you can use the earpiece to select the desired channel.

Please address all comments through the chair.

Before we proceed, I simply want to remind members to be careful when handling their earpieces, especially when their microphone or their neighbour's microphone is turned on. Earpieces placed too close to the microphone are one of the most common causes of sound feedback, which is extremely harmful to interpreters and causes serious injuries.

Today we welcome the Office of the Commissioner of the Environment and Sustainable Development, as well as the Department of Fisheries and Oceans, for a briefing on “Report 6: Monitoring Marine Fisheries Catch” of the commissioner's report.

I would like to welcome our witnesses. From the Office of the Commissioner of the Environment and Sustainable Development, we have Jerry DeMarco, commissioner; David Normand, principal; and Francis Michaud, director.

Representing the Department of Fisheries and Oceans, we have Brent Napier, acting director general, conservation and protection. On Zoom, we have Todd Williams, senior director, fisheries resource management, operations; Jennifer Mooney, director of national licensing operations, is here in the room.

Thank you all for taking the time to appear today. Each department will have five minutes or less for an opening statement.

I will invite Mr. Jerry DeMarco to begin, please.

[Jerry V. DeMarco, Commissioner of the Environment and Sustainable Development, Office of the Auditor General]

Mr. Chair, thank you for this opportunity to appear before your committee to discuss our report on monitoring marine fisheries catch, which was tabled in the House of Commons on November 7, 2023.

I would like to acknowledge that this hearing is taking place on the traditional unceded territory of the Algonquin Anishinabe people.

Joining me today are David Normand and Francis Michaud, who were responsible for the audit.

In Canada, approximately 72,000 people make their living directly from fishing and related activities. In 2021 the country’s commercial marine fisheries were valued at $4.6 billion. As of 2022, there were 156 federally managed commercial marine fish stocks on Canada’s east and west coasts and in the Arctic. Fisheries and Oceans Canada is responsible for monitoring fish catch to ensure that these stocks are sustainably managed.

Fish catch information supports many stock management processes, including assessing fish stock health and setting seasonal fishing quotas to ensure that stocks are not depleted.

Our audit focused on whether Fisheries and Oceans Canada obtained dependable and timely fisheries catch monitoring information and whether the department used that information to sustainably manage the harvesting of commercial marine fisheries.

Overall, we found that the department was unable to collect dependable and timely data to have a full picture of the health of Canada’s fish stocks. We also found that the department did not ensure that catch data collected by third party observers was dependable and timely.

We also found that many of the weaknesses found when we last audited this area seven years ago remain problematic. For example, the department created the fishery monitoring policy in response to a recommendation in our 2016 audit, but it had not implemented the policy or supported it with resources or an action plan.

Seven years ago, we also flagged that the department’s information management systems needed to be modernized to support the collection of dependable and timely data. We found that progress in this area has been very slow. Fisheries and Oceans Canada has spent about $31 million to implement a system that would provide ready access to data and integrate information across all its regions. However, the department’s rollout of this new system is incomplete, and the timeline for delivery has been delayed 10 years.

Without dependable and timely data on fish being caught, Fisheries and Oceans Canada does not know whether commercial stocks are being overfished. The collapse of the Atlantic cod population in the 1990s—with its far-reaching economic and social impacts—has shown that it is far more expensive and difficult to recover depleted stocks than it is to keep them healthy in the first place.

Mr. Chair, this concludes my opening statement. We would be pleased to answer any questions the committee may have.

[The Vice-Chair, Conservative, Mel Arnold]

Thank you very much. That was well within the five minutes.

I invite Mr. Brent Napier to give his opening statement.

[Brent Napier, Acting Director General, Conservation and Protection, Department of Fisheries and Oceans]

Thank you, Chair. I believe Todd Williams will be providing the introductory statement today.

Thank you so much.

[The Vice-Chair, Conservative, Mel Arnold]

Thank you.

Mr. Williams, please go ahead.

[Todd Williams, Senior Director, Fisheries Resource Management, Operations, Department of Fisheries and Oceans]

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.

Good day, members of the committee.

I would like to begin by recognizing I am speaking to you from Mi'kma'ki, the ancestral and unceded territory of the Mi'kmaq people. This territory was covered by the treaties of peace and friendship that Mi'kmaq, Wolastoqiyik or Maliseet, and Passamaquoddy peoples first signed with the British Crown in 1726. The treaties did not deal with the surrender of lands and resources but in fact recognized Mi'kmaq and Wolastoqiyik—Maliseet—title and established the rules for what was to be an ongoing relationship between nations.

My name is Todd Williams. I'm the acting director general of fisheries resource management substantively the senior director of fisheries management operations at Fisheries and Oceans Canada. With me today are Brent Napier, acting director general for conservation and protection, and Jennifer Mooney, director of national licensing operations.

I appreciate the opportunity to be here before this committee on behalf of the department to speak to the commissioner of the environment and sustainable development's audit on monitoring fisheries catch, which was tabled in Parliament on November 7, 2023.

The commissioner has provided parliamentarians and Canadians with independent analyses and recommendations in their audit on the monitoring of fisheries catch. The commissioner's report raises awareness of the challenges that the government and its partners face with regard to fisheries monitoring. On behalf of Fisheries and Oceans Canada, I would like to thank the commissioner for his work and acknowledge the report's findings. Moreover, the department welcomes the recommendations put forth in the report and is taking action to address them.

While we agree that there are areas for improvement, we are not in agreement with the broad conclusion that catch monitoring programs in commercial fisheries were not sufficient to meet our fishery objectives. All of our commercial fisheries have catch monitoring programs, and harvest decisions are based on a robust combination of data from those programs along with data from scientific surveys of stocks.

With regard to catch monitoring, the department is in the process of implementing its fishery monitoring policy and recognizes the need to accelerate this work. This is why the federal government has invested $30.9 million from this fiscal year to 2028, with $5.1 million ongoing to support the implementation of this policy. This funding will help accelerate work to achieve the overarching policy goal, which is to ensure that fishery monitoring programs produce reliable, timely and accessible fish catch information.

In addition, Fisheries and Oceans Canada will continue to make improvements to the at-sea observer program by working collaboratively with at-sea observer companies.

The expansion of electronic logbooks and the development of the Canadian fisheries information system, CFIS, are major efforts to improve and enhance catch reporting services, which the department believes are crucial to ensuring that modernization and data collection are at the forefront of the fishing industry.

Fisheries and Oceans Canada is committed to continuing to improve our catch monitoring programs and introducing more efficient and effective methods to collect and verify catch data. As part of this commitment, DFO is making strides to modernize catch information systems, modernize the observer program and implement the national fisheries monitoring policy.

In closing, Fisheries and Oceans Canada is committed to sustainably managing Canada’s fisheries for the long-term benefit of all Canadians. We recognize the essential role that robust catch data has in achieving that goal and are confident that our investments to strengthen catch monitoring over the coming years will have long-term benefits for Canada’s fisheries.

Thank you for the opportunity to appear today. We would welcome your questions.

Thank you.

[The Vice-Chair, Conservative, Mel Arnold]

Thank you both. You were both well within the five minutes allotted, so thank you very much.

We'll go to our first round of questions. We'll begin with Mr. Small.

[Clifford Small, Conservative, Coast of Bays—Central—Notre Dame, NL]

Thank you, Mr. Chair. Thank you to the witnesses for coming out today.

I'll start off with Mr. DeMarco.

You referenced the need for dependable and timely data and that it's not forthcoming. What's changed since your last report? Has anything improved?

[Jerry V. DeMarco]

I've been commissioner now for a little over three years within the Office of the Auditor General, and it troubles me that had I been commissioner seven years ago when our office last looked at this issue, I would be saying some of the same things then as I'm saying now. There's been a lack of progress, considering that we audited this issue back in 2016 and that it's now just over seven years later.

There have been some improvements. There have been some investments in information technology. The most significant improvement was the creation of the policy that was promised after our audit, but, as we set out in our report, the implementation of the policy is still lacking, as well as the resources to implement it.

It is disappointing that many of the findings we made seven years ago still hold true today.

[Clifford Small, Conservative, Coast of Bays—Central—Notre Dame, NL]

Thank you.

You've mentioned that stocks may be overfished as a result of missing catch data. Is it possible that the opposite could be true? Could we be missing economic opportunity as a result of incomplete stock assessments?

[Jerry V. DeMarco]

The situation could be both, yes. It could be that the data are not there and the quotas are set too low, or the data are not there and the quotas are set too high. It could be either.

[Clifford Small, Conservative, Coast of Bays—Central—Notre Dame, NL]

Thank you.

This takes me to northern cod, which is mentioned quite a bit in your report.

DFO has nearly doubled its budget. It's had a 40% increase in personnel since 2015. In response to an Order Paper question, I was told that logbook data results since 2019 have not been compiled for the northern cod species. There's a lot of data that's been available without new technology or whatever; it's basically from old technology and it's very old data, but it couldn't be provided to me.

Did DFO not have enough money or personnel, or did the minister simply not make it a priority, Mr. Napier?

[Brent Napier]

I think it was a priority, and it remains a priority. From an enforcement perspective, we have ensured that we have a commitment both to ensuring that officers are out doing the work and using the most highly technical tools available to them, such—

[Clifford Small, Conservative, Coast of Bays—Central—Notre Dame, NL]

Mr. Napier, that's data that would be number-crunched in an office. You've hired 800 to 900 people here in Ottawa in very high-level positions. At the same time, there was no trawl data to be analyzed. I have to question the efficiency of the science program if you have data that's four years old and no trawl data coming in to be analyzed.

Why did I get an answer back to an Order Paper question that the data's not been compiled after four years?

[Brent Napier]

Again, I can speak only on the enforcement front.

I know, as my colleague Todd Williams mentioned, that aside from some of the cash monitoring tools that were assessed, such as the third party monitoring, there's a significant amount of other information that's collected, particularly by the enforcement group, whether it be through intelligence, aircraft surveillance, on-water patrols, through our own port inspections or through facility inspections.

[Clifford Small, Conservative, Coast of Bays—Central—Notre Dame, NL]

How important is this catch data?

I'd like to ask Mr. Williams how important catch rate data is, especially with the absence of a trawl survey, in getting a picture of the biomass.

[Todd Williams]

There are a number of data sources that we use when making fisheries management decisions. Certainly, science data is one.

If we are missing a trawl, there are ways that we can look back at the existing science that we had previously and extrapolate from it and make some conclusions as to where we can go forward. Certainly, a lack of catch data is an issue, and it's something that can be included when it comes to fishery management decisions.

[Clifford Small, Conservative, Coast of Bays—Central—Notre Dame, NL]

Mr. Williams, I'm sorry: That data was provided. It's the law for fishermen to submit that data. You've been sitting on that data for a very long time.

With the northern cod, we've seen exponentially increasing catch rates. When I went to the minister in June, there was no data to support it other than the sentinel fisheries, which showed no improvement for some reason.

It's strange for me to find out through my Order Paper question that the sentinel fisheries showed no improvement in the stock when gillnet catch rates were up about 50 times over what they were in the eighties on a per-hour basis, based on what I'm seeing on the ground.

Do you trust the data that's provided by fishermen, or do you discount it?

[Todd Williams]

I think all of that is actually very important.

That's part of the purpose of the fishery monitoring policy. It essentially conducts an audit on the risk, quality and dependability of that data that's coming in. In some fisheries, the quality of data is excellent and we know for certain that it can be validated. In other cases in which there are different requirements, it is a bit more of a challenge.

[Clifford Small, Conservative, Coast of Bays—Central—Notre Dame, NL]

Thank you, Mr. Williams.

[The Vice-Chair, Conservative, Mel Arnold]

Thank you, Mr. Small. That's your time.

Mr. Hardie is next.

[Ken Hardie, Liberal, Fleetwood—Port Kells, BC]

Thank you, Mr. chair.

I have a difficult question, I think, for Mr. Williams.

In the course of our various studies, one of the things we've also discovered over and above what the commissioner's report says is that the DFO's effort in stock assessment is quite behind schedule in many cases, in many places and with many species. If on top of that we don't have good enough data on the catch, in lieu of stock assessments, one would assume that you go to the precautionary principle and you manage fishing effort, but managing fishing effort effectively means knowing what's being caught, and the commissioner's report suggests that we really don't have a good grasp of that.

Really, are we in any place to know exactly the state of our current industry or of our indigenous fishery, much less where we're going in the future? It seems that everything is in a black box right now. Can you comment on that?

[Todd Williams]

I think it's important to note that certainly not all fisheries are equal. We have many fisheries that have 100% at-sea observer coverage. We have very good data coming out of those fisheries, as well as very recent stock assessments.

Then in other cases, in stock assessments, perhaps we might have missed one. In other cases, perhaps we don't have 100% at-sea observers. Perhaps we have some other method to get that catch information: perhaps hail-in and hail-out reports, dockside monitoring and/or different percentages of at-sea observer coverage.

That's all based on us as a department working with harvesters to determine what is feasible. One hundred per cent at-sea observer coverage is not feasible across all of our fisheries, especially for small boat operators, so we have to figure out which tools work in which fisheries.

That's why I think you see, in some cases, some gaps, but I guess it's important to note that while there are some gaps—and we recognize that—we're working to improve that situation. We do have instances and very good examples of good, reliable data coming into the department to further augment the information coming from science.

[Ken Hardie, Liberal, Fleetwood—Port Kells, BC]

Well, it would be good to get some examples from you, perhaps in writing, which would fulfill a need that we have here for more clarity on this, because certainly the commissioner's report suggests that it's very limited success.

It does lead to another thing that has been bothering a number of us. Many of us have been on this committee since late 2015. We have done lots of reports with lots of recommendations, but when it's time to go back and find out what has been done—and I will certainly point to, for instance, the “risks and benefits” study that came out in 2019—precious little has even been started, much less accomplished.

I guess I have to wonder. Given this information and given the gaps that we've seen mentioned time and time again, the priority setting has to be questioned, and the use of the resources as well. The government has put a lot more resources into the DFO since 2015, and it is disappointing to see a lack of progress on really critical facets of managing this resource.

Again, who sets the priorities? Are you convinced that they're the right ones? Are you reviewing them, Mr. Williams?

[Todd Williams]

I think the issue of catch monitoring and data collection is very important. In fact, today I'm attending this meeting from Halifax because I was chairing the Atlantic mackerel advisory committee meeting, where we had a session on fishery monitoring policy implementation and how that could feed into the rebuilding plan of that stock, which is in the critical zone.

We take this very seriously and we're incorporating the recommendations that were provided to us by the commissioner and working them into our business lines and right across our fisheries where we think improvements can be made. Today is a good example of that.