Evidence of meeting #96 for Fisheries and Oceans in the 44th Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was report.
A recording is available from Parliament.
4:45 p.m.
Liberal
4:45 p.m.
Conservative
The Vice-Chair Conservative Mel Arnold
Thank you, Mr. Cormier.
That concludes the round of questioning. We're now into the next round.
We start again with Mr. Perkins.
4:45 p.m.
Conservative
Rick Perkins Conservative South Shore—St. Margarets, NS
Thank you, Mr. Chair.
Mr. Commissioner, maybe I can carry on where I left off, as a concrete example. Again, it's through one of these great, marvellous things we call “Order Paper questions” in the House of Commons, whereby MPs get to ask questions and sometimes get responses.
One response I got recently was on science data related to Canada's most lucrative fish stock, the lobster fishery in the Maritimes. It's broken up into various fishing areas, as you may know, called LFAs—lobster fishing areas. This summer, DFO granted an increase in quota. The only place where there's a quota on lobster is in the offshore, where Clearwater owns all eight licences and has a monopoly in an area three times the size of Nova Scotia. DFO increased the quota by 7,200 tonnes.
I asked for the science behind that increase in quota. I asked for the science for all the LFAs in the Maritimes. I'm sure you won't be surprised to learn that the answer was, “We don't have any science data on that. We rely solely on catch data.”
Do you think, in setting an integrated fisheries management plan, that the only thing DFO should rely on is catch data?
4:50 p.m.
Commissioner of the Environment and Sustainable Development, Office of the Auditor General
No, there's a role for various sources of data.
I'm not familiar with the specific example you're giving, but as I mentioned before, science data, catch data and enforcement data are all important inputs into a more informed decision on sustainability.
4:50 p.m.
Conservative
Rick Perkins Conservative South Shore—St. Margarets, NS
In doing the data part, we had DFO appear before this committee on a study we're engaged in right now on illegal and unreported fishing. They said they sort of guess at what the illegal quota is. We saw that in my area last year. They guessed that the elver fishery had been poached to the tune of four to five times the quota within 18 days, so they shut it down, and then let the poaching happen through to the end of July.
Do you think that guessing at poaching of our various species is adequate? There is no dockside monitoring in the summer in southwest Nova Scotia. There's none for the lobster fishery either, when illegal lobster catches are being brought in. Do you think some sort of guess from DFO, based on the current size, is an adequate way to put catch data into the fisheries management plan?
4:50 p.m.
Commissioner of the Environment and Sustainable Development, Office of the Auditor General
A preferable approach would be to implement the recommendation from our 2022 report, “Protecting Aquatic Species at Risk”, in which we said that DFO should ensure enough staff are available to enforce the prohibitions in both the Species at Risk Act and the Fisheries Act. If there are enough resources put into enforcement, you have better data about illegal fishing and also deter illegal fishing.
4:50 p.m.
Conservative
Rick Perkins Conservative South Shore—St. Margarets, NS
I'm going to ask you about something in the paper today. You probably can't comment. Mr. Napier might comment on it.
The enforcement part of effective fisheries management is for DFO's C and P—conservation and protection—to lay charges and for the public prosecution office to actually pursue those charges. The public prosecution office in Nova Scotia announced today that they're not going to pursue any charges laid by C and P with regard to illegal elver fishing if it has to do with first nations.
Is this an appropriate way? That will lead, in my view, to more lawlessness on the water. It's encouragement when they announce there won't be enforcement. The public prosecution office won't pursue it. Do you think that's going to discourage C and P officers from laying charges?
4:50 p.m.
Acting Director General, Conservation and Protection, Department of Fisheries and Oceans
Thank you for the question.
I don't believe so. I think we still have a responsibility, and there is a separation. As you mentioned, PPSC—the Public Prosecution Service of Canada—will determine whether there are charges or not. It's still our responsibility to collect that information and evidence in cases of unauthorized fishing and provide that information, moving forward.
In terms of the results, if they're not what we want, we're used to it—not just there, but also in many other fisheries.
4:50 p.m.
Conservative
Rick Perkins Conservative South Shore—St. Margarets, NS
I've heard from C and P officers on the ground that they find this discouraging. When they're putting their lives at risk, it affects whether or not they think it's worth laying charges on the ground when they know the public prosecution office is not going to pursue them.
4:50 p.m.
Acting Director General, Conservation and Protection, Department of Fisheries and Oceans
Certainly I would imagine they would be discouraged, but I think they're loyal in their implementation. They conduct their work. If it's unauthorized, they document it as they would in any other case. I think they're hoping for the result that eventually, through other mechanisms within the department, through negotiation, we resolve this issue.
4:55 p.m.
Conservative
The Vice-Chair Conservative Mel Arnold
Thank you, Mr. Perkins and Mr. Napier.
The next individual is Mr. Kelloway, please, online.
No, it's Mr. Hardie; pardon me. My apologies, sir.
4:55 p.m.
Liberal
Ken Hardie Liberal Fleetwood—Port Kells, BC
Totally.
I wanted to reflect on my evil twin on X over here and the comment he made about the growth in the human resources department at the DFO. I have a theory that the health and effectiveness of any organization is inversely related to the number of people in HR. I'll let him just think on that one.
I want to talk about exhibit 9.2 in your report. There are five steps for “Implementing the Fishery Monitoring Policy”: “prioritize fisheries”, “assess current fishery program”, “set conservation and compliance monitoring objectives”, “identify monitoring requirements” and “develop and operationalize a fishery monitoring program”, so at step five we actually get to do something. Then step six is “review monitoring program performance”.
Mr. Williams or Mr. Napier, one of you can answer yes or no. Is this really what the DFO accepts as the proper approach?
4:55 p.m.
Senior Director, Fisheries Resource Management, Operations, Department of Fisheries and Oceans
Yes, that is an accurate reflection of the fisheries monitoring policy.
4:55 p.m.
Liberal
Ken Hardie Liberal Fleetwood—Port Kells, BC
Okay.
In eight years we've managed to identify 22 of 156 fish stocks. Of that, two of that 22—or two out of 156 possible stocks—have reached the second stage—assessing the current fishery monitoring programs. I guess there's nothing beyond that, and it's been eight years.
In assessing the current fishery monitoring programs of the two of the 22, are you convinced, based on what the report is telling us about the shortcomings of the monitoring program, that even the two of the 22 have been effectively assessed?
4:55 p.m.
Senior Director, Fisheries Resource Management, Operations, Department of Fisheries and Oceans
I am, yes. Using the data that was available to us, including catch data supplied to us from harvesters, we were able to arrive at what we believe, following the policy, are accurate numbers with respect to quality and risk.
4:55 p.m.
Liberal
4:55 p.m.
Senior Director, Fisheries Resource Management, Operations, Department of Fisheries and Oceans
There is some level of qualitative assumption built into the assessment, but it is the policy as it's developed and as approved by the department. As I understand it, the commissioner and his office supported the policy in that way, in terms of how it was designed.
4:55 p.m.
Liberal
Ken Hardie Liberal Fleetwood—Port Kells, BC
With climate change and all of the things that are taking place out there on the water, even extrapolation becomes a pretty tricky business.
How many people are actually working on these five steps? Do we have a number of staff that are actually engaged in following the department's process and performance in these five steps? How many people are working there?
4:55 p.m.
Senior Director, Fisheries Resource Management, Operations, Department of Fisheries and Oceans
Dedicated resources were provided in the 2023 budget. I can tell you that on my team we have two full-time equivalents working on this to provide national coordination and implementation on the stocks that we manage out of Ottawa.
In the regions, they also have resources based in fish management, conservation and protection, and in science as well, to implement FMP, fish monitoring policy. They have gone through and assessed their fisheries and are working through it as well. The assessment is just the next step after we've already prioritized, of course.
The monitoring objectives—
4:55 p.m.
Liberal
Ken Hardie Liberal Fleetwood—Port Kells, BC
I'm sorry, Mr. Williams. Did you just indicate that this activity of these five steps wasn't actually resourced until after the 2023 budget?
4:55 p.m.
Senior Director, Fisheries Resource Management, Operations, Department of Fisheries and Oceans
That is correct. We were using existing resources to implement the policy until 2023.
4:55 p.m.
Liberal
Ken Hardie Liberal Fleetwood—Port Kells, BC
Did those existing resources then follow through and become dedicated, or were they new people in 2023?
4:55 p.m.
Senior Director, Fisheries Resource Management, Operations, Department of Fisheries and Oceans
These are the same resources that we use to manage the fishery. They are our fishery analysts.
4:55 p.m.
Liberal
Ken Hardie Liberal Fleetwood—Port Kells, BC
How are the 22 of the 156 fish stocks prioritized? What made them a priority for this activity?
