Subcommittee on Food Safety Committee on June 8th, 2009

[Dr. Brian Evans]

Honourable member, Mr. Chair, I come back to the point very clearly that I believe that the work being done in the plant by the two inspectors certainly did determine that in fact sanitation protocols were being followed, as outlined in both their HACCP plans and as required under our verification tasks in terms of the sanitation work that was being done in the plant, post-operative and pre-operative. Those were being met, and they were being reported on by the inspectors in the plant.

The challenge, and I think we have identified it in the lessons learned, was the fact that there was no obligation at that time for the company to be conducting environmental testing, or, if they were conducting environmental testing, to be reporting those results to the CFIA. That was different from the reality that they were obliged to do end-product testing, that they were obliged to immediately notify CFIA of any results on end-product testing, and that we as the government were doing additional oversight in terms of end-product testing but were not doing environmental sampling.

In hindsight, it was determined that in fact the company was doing environmental testing. I believe they have testified as well that there was information being kept at the plant but not being provided to the inspector at that time. From our perspective, that is one of the areas where we felt we had to change immediately. That was done last fall, to make it an obligation for the company to report immediately on its environmental testing plan; to make sure that every company has an environmental testing plan; to ensure that government testing was carried out in parallel with that; and to introduce the requirement that in addition to notifying CFIA by the company, the accredited labs that conduct that testing also have to notify us directly, from the laboratories directly to CFIA, to ensure that we have a closed loop so it can't be reported to the plant and not to us at the same time.

We do recognize and do believe, honourable member, that this area did require immediate addressing. That was done last fall, as soon as that could be implemented.

[The Chair, Conservative, Larry Miller]

Thanks, Dr. Evans.

Mr. Anderson, five minutes.

[David Anderson, Conservative, Cypress Hills—Grasslands, SK]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I think we should maybe have a little better understanding of the extremes of the precautionary principle that have been taken, which Mr. Allen was referring to. You find yourselves in a situation where because a canary might die, we're going to shut the coal mine down. It often seems to be taken to that limit.

I want you to talk a little bit more about the mandatory environmental testing policy that you were just talking about. What's the status of that? You feel that has improved the food safety system adequately. Do you have any comments on that? Is it important that this mandatory testing continue?

[Paul Mayers]

Thank you, Mr. Chair, and thank you for the question.

As Dr. Evans has noted, the importance of the environmental testing has been a key factor in terms of our lessons learned. That's why we took the step not only of requiring on a mandatory basis that companies integrate regular environmental testing in their HACCP programs, but that as an agency we would reinstate our own testing and in fact triple the level to which it was applied, in order to verify that the testing being conducted by the companies is indeed effective. So, absolutely, we would agree that the ability to identify listeria in the plant environment has been demonstrated through our assessment of this situation to be a key element, and we have therefore actioned that.

[David Anderson, Conservative, Cypress Hills—Grasslands, SK]

I want to talk about a little different technology that was suggested to us the other night, and it's one that's come and gone once already, and that is irradiation. Now, Mr. Pavlic, from the Beef Information Centre, actually likened it to milk pasteurization.

Do you have any comment on that? Do you have any strong positions on that?

[Paul Mayers]

Thank you.

Mr. Chairman, the use of food irradiation as one of the elements in the toolkit is indeed an option that has merit. We recognize that, at present, there are limitations on the availability of food irradiation. Before irradiation can be applied to a food, it must be approved by Health Canada, and the current products for which food irradiation is permitted are a limited set. Nonetheless, it is a technology that can minimize food contamination through the destruction of pathogenic micro-organisms, so it does offer one possible means of destroying any potential contaminants that might enter the product post-processing. It is not the only option in that regard, but it would certainly work as described, like the pasteurization of milk does, which is to destroy disease-causing micro-organisms that may be present.

[David Anderson, Conservative, Cypress Hills—Grasslands, SK]

Do you see any food safety issues with that?

[Paul Mayers]

The food safety opportunity that irradiation presents would be to further minimize the potential for contamination of product by treating these products after they have been processed and packaged in order to, in essence, eliminate disease-causing micro-organisms. So it is indeed an opportunity; however, that opportunity in terms of processed products of these types is not currently available, as that has not yet been approved by Health Canada for use in this particular application.

[David Anderson, Conservative, Cypress Hills—Grasslands, SK]

You did a great job of avoiding answering that question.

I just want to come back to something I addressed last time when you were here, and that's the provincial standards, the federal standards. When Piller's were here, they spoke about the provinces coming up to one standard, and they thought Ontario's standard was a strong standard. Do you have any authority to override provinces to bring about a national standard the provinces would have to adhere to? How are you working on that subject? What are you trying to accomplish there?

[Carole Swan]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

The federal government and the CFIA focus their efforts on those plants that either ship across provincial borders or internationally. However, I think it's fair to say that the concept of a common national standard is one that has quite a bit of appeal. We have been working at the officials level, with our colleagues in provinces and territories, to advance this to a level where we might in fact be able to make some progress.

[David Anderson, Conservative, Cypress Hills—Grasslands, SK]

Can I just ask you some of the details of that, then?

The provinces would adopt a common standard, so it would end up being a national standard because of that, or are you suggesting that there could be provincial standards, a national standard, and an export standard as well?

[Carole Swan]

We're still in discussion on this. Right now, we are talking to our provincial colleagues to see how we can make sure that we have as common a standard as we possibly can, recognizing that there are differing circumstances.

[David Anderson, Conservative, Cypress Hills—Grasslands, SK]

Okay. I think I'm out of time.

[The Chair, Conservative, Larry Miller]

Yes, your time is up.

I'd like to thank Ms. Swan, Mr. Evans, Mr. Prince, Mr. Myers, and Mr. Baker. Thanks for your—

[Carolyn Bennett, Liberal, St. Paul's, ON]

Wait a second.

[The Chair, Conservative, Larry Miller]

You have a problem, Ms. Bennett?

[Carolyn Bennett, Liberal, St. Paul's, ON]

Mr. Chair, I don't think we're quite done with this piece. I also don't think we can instruct the analysts before we've heard the witnesses, the very important witnesses, next week on public health, in terms of—

[The Chair, Conservative, Larry Miller]

That is for the next part of the meeting, Ms. Bennett.

[Carolyn Bennett, Liberal, St. Paul's, ON]

No, but what I'm saying is I think we still have questions, in terms of the holes. Also, Mr. Chair, we have yet to hear from the health ministers, Mr. Clement—

[The Chair, Conservative, Larry Miller]

Ms. Bennett, we've had a number of different witnesses. Some nights we have run out of questions for them and other nights we haven't had enough time. I'm trying to keep a balance today, but we have the agenda, so....

[Carolyn Bennett, Liberal, St. Paul's, ON]

The committee is the master of its own work.

[The Chair, Conservative, Larry Miller]

That's right, it is.

[Carolyn Bennett, Liberal, St. Paul's, ON]

Just see if you have a consensus to have the CFIA stay for another hour.

[The Chair, Conservative, Larry Miller]

We have the time on there. This part of the meeting is adjourned. We suspend for five minutes—

[Carolyn Bennett, Liberal, St. Paul's, ON]

I would like to challenge the chair on this.