Evidence of meeting #1 for Subcommittee on Oil and Gas and Other Energy Prices in the 39th Parliament, 2nd Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was price.

A recording is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Erica Pereira  Procedural Clerk
Peter Boag  President, Canadian Petroleum Products Institute
Warren MacLean  As an Individual
Jane Savage  President and Chief Executive Officer, Canadian Independent Petroleum Marketers Association

11:20 a.m.

President, Canadian Petroleum Products Institute

Peter Boag

I would dispute that. I think the prices go both up and down very quickly, almost instantaneously, in response to the price of crude. What I also would reiterate is that throughout all this, and notwithstanding the volatility, Canadians still pay the second lowest price for gasoline in the western world. I would certainly pose to Monsieur Vincent the question, where does he think the price should go? What does he think the price should be?

11:20 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative James Rajotte

Thank you. Merci.

We'll go to Mr. Van Kesteren, please.

11:20 a.m.

Conservative

Dave Van Kesteren Conservative Chatham-Kent—Essex, ON

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Thank you, witnesses, for coming here. It's fascinating.

I wanted to touch on something Ms. Savage said. I'm not trying to correct you, but I think you were implying that at your level it's pretty much transparent and there seems to be a pretty regular flux in price, but that it's at the well that there is more of the profit.

Is it safe to say it's at some wells? I would assume that if you're pumping it out of Saudi Arabia, where there's a lot of just pumping, rather than out of some offshore drilling or something that's more expensive.... Is it safe to say that at some wells the profits are higher than at other wells?

I don't want a long answer to that. Is it safe to say that?

August 27th, 2008 / 11:20 a.m.

President and Chief Executive Officer, Canadian Independent Petroleum Marketers Association

Jane Savage

Sure, yes.

11:20 a.m.

Conservative

Dave Van Kesteren Conservative Chatham-Kent—Essex, ON

I think that needs to be cleared up too, because this thought occurred to me, and correct me if I'm way off in left field. We know that supply and demand dictate where the price is going to be. We know there's a theory out there about peak oil: whether the peak oil is something that's going to happen shortly or whether it's somewhere in the near future, it's safe to assume that when that happens the price is going to skyrocket. Is the high price of oil keeping our price of oil down? If the high price of oil encourages some of the exploration and if the earth has x amount of oil, but if we're approaching the point where we're going to be extracting that, then is the high price encouraging exploration and subsequently producing enough oil that we don't get to that point yet?

Do you understand what I'm saying?

11:20 a.m.

As an Individual

Warren MacLean

I think that is one of the concerns people see in the industry: the high prices of crude oil have not resulted in an increase in reserves. That plays into the peak oil theory. If you look at the major producers, their production levels are flat to declining. Some of the independents in the U.S. are seeing some growth in production. There are some pockets of growth. Saskatchewan has a particularly good pocket of growth in production. On a general perspective, that's why you see the big debate in the U.S. about access to land to drill more. They're just not seeing the growth in reserve additions with the higher prices. I think that's adding to the concern and probably reinforcing the price increase.

11:20 a.m.

Conservative

Dave Van Kesteren Conservative Chatham-Kent—Essex, ON

Mr. Boag, I want you to jump in on this.

What I'm suggesting is the possibility that if we didn't have the price we have, the exploration wouldn't be there, we'd have less oil, and the price would just take off.

11:20 a.m.

President, Canadian Petroleum Products Institute

Peter Boag

Certainly the high prices for crude act as an incentive to explore and particularly look for crude in what would previously have been uneconomic areas and uneconomic reserves. So yes, I would agree with Mr. MacLean that high prices do act as an incentive to find more, particularly to explore those opportunities that may have been uneconomical at lower crude prices.

11:20 a.m.

Conservative

Dave Van Kesteren Conservative Chatham-Kent—Essex, ON

The logical conclusion to that would be that if we are successful in some of our exploration we may see...maybe not a glut, but certainly a level that would cause prices to drop.

11:20 a.m.

President, Canadian Petroleum Products Institute

Peter Boag

You're talking only about the supply side of what is a complex supply and demand equation. Clearly the demand side is ultimately going to have a significant impact on what that supply-demand balance is that ultimately is a fundamental behind prices.

11:20 a.m.

Conservative

Dave Van Kesteren Conservative Chatham-Kent—Essex, ON

We won't get into that.

Maybe you could touch very quickly on why we see such a variance in the price between gas and diesel. I'm a member of the trucking caucus; I'm the chairperson, actually. I know that is a real concern. I know truckers are very concerned about the price. Why is there such a price disparity between the two?

11:25 a.m.

President, Canadian Petroleum Products Institute

Peter Boag

I think what you're seeing there is an even tighter supply-demand situation on middle distillates, including diesel, than there is on gasoline. I think that's particularly tight in the Atlantic basin. Europe has a huge demand and thirst for diesel these days because of its significant and rapid dieselization of its automobile fleet. The demand profile in Europe is quite different from what it is here in North America, in that diesel is much higher in demand than gasoline. Also, we've seen significant economic growth throughout the world over the last number of years, and diesel is largely driven by demand. It's largely driven by economic growth. So it's a combination of factors that ultimately have created a very tight supply and demand situation for diesel that has driven diesel prices up proportionately higher than gasoline in the last few months.

11:25 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative James Rajotte

Just very briefly, then.

11:25 a.m.

As an Individual

Warren MacLean

I'd agree with that as well. The only thing I'd add is that the industry has to produce ultra-low-sulphur diesel, which is added to the cost. It probably costs more to produce diesel now.

My belief is that diesel is the cause of the run-up in crude prices. It's not crude prices that are driving the market; it's diesel prices worldwide.

11:25 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative James Rajotte

Thank you, Mr. Van Kesteren.

We'll go to Ms. Nash, please.

11:25 a.m.

NDP

Peggy Nash NDP Parkdale—High Park, ON

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

On the issue of the cause of gas prices, we're hearing that Canada's price is relatively low. Some would argue that the price should even be higher. I think the difference is that rather than having a higher price, which some countries do, and having that money invested in green solutions--alternative energy sources and other things, to offer alternatives to people--the price here is set privately and the profits are going to private interests. We are the second largest supplier in the world, and the impact is huge on all aspects of our economy.

I was quite struck recently to learn that an airline, Jazz, is going to abandon having life jackets on their flights because of the cost of fuel. So if there's an emergency, “hang on to your seat ” is basically their message.

So there's a real concern about the total impact of these prices on the economy, and a fear and a sense by consumers that they are getting gouged.

Prices pretty much track crude costs, normal refining costs, marketing margins, taxes, etc. But every so often there are periods when prices spike. One study I read said that every additional penny per litre above the normal costs of marketing, etc., generates $1 million for the industry from gasoline sales alone. Sometimes it can go up to tens of millions of dollars a day, just from the price of gasoline.

Mr. Boag, are oil companies gouging Canadians by having prices higher than the costs that could be attributed to crude, refining, taxes, and normal marketing and profit costs?

11:25 a.m.

President, Canadian Petroleum Products Institute

Peter Boag

My unequivocal answer is absolutely not.

11:25 a.m.

NDP

Peggy Nash NDP Parkdale—High Park, ON

But how do you account for that difference, when over and above these costs there are price increases that clearly go to the oil companies?

11:25 a.m.

President, Canadian Petroleum Products Institute

Peter Boag

I'm not sure I understand your question. Could you be a little more specific on what you're trying to ask?

11:25 a.m.

NDP

Peggy Nash NDP Parkdale—High Park, ON

I'd like to know why there are periods when the price of gasoline, for example, is higher than the cost of crude plus taxes and normal marketing and mark-up costs. Where does that differential go?

11:30 a.m.

President, Canadian Petroleum Products Institute

Peter Boag

We're talking about a hypothetical situation, and I'm having a hard time understanding when that hypothetical situation actually exists.

11:30 a.m.

NDP

Peggy Nash NDP Parkdale—High Park, ON

Take this summer, for example.

11:30 a.m.

President, Canadian Petroleum Products Institute

Peter Boag

I don't believe that was the case this summer. In fact, when we look at the various components that comprise the price of gasoline for Canadians today and this summer, the change has largely been driven by the price of crude--

11:30 a.m.

NDP

Peggy Nash NDP Parkdale—High Park, ON

But when crude goes up, even a slight extra differential in the pricing here in Canada means big profits for the oil industry.

11:30 a.m.

President, Canadian Petroleum Products Institute

Peter Boag

It doesn't mean big profits for the refining sector, because I can tell you today that refining margins, which are a relatively small component of the difference between the price of the crude that refiners pay and the wholesale price they get when they sell, are now 8¢ to 9¢ below where they were a year ago. They're running around 18%--