Evidence of meeting #60 for Health in the 39th Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was recommendations.

A recording is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

John Wright  Co-Chair and Deputy Minister of Health, Government of Saskatchewan, Conference of Deputy Ministers of Health
Jill Sanders  President and Chief Executive Officer, Canadian Agency for Drugs and Technologies in Health
Mike Tierney  Vice-President, Common Drug Review, Canadian Agency for Drugs and Technologies in Health

3:35 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Rob Merrifield

We'll call the meeting to order.

I want to thank the members, the ones who are here, for being here on time. The others I'm sure will be here very shortly.

We're into our last meeting with witnesses on the study on the common drug review, pursuant to Standing Order 108(2), a study on prescription drugs, the common drug review.

We want to make sure that we let everyone know and realize that this is leg one of a study on prescription drugs. We'll be getting into further studies after we issue a report on this. This is our last set of witnesses on the common drug review before we discuss and present the recommendations and a report to Parliament.

To wrap this up, we have with us John Wright from the Conference of Deputy Ministers of Health. It's good to have you here as co-chair and as Deputy Minister of Health, Government of Saskatchewan. And from the Canadian Agency for Drugs and Technologies in Health, it's good to have Jill Sanders, chief executive officer, with us. You're the two presenters.

We'll start with Mr. Wright. The floor is yours.

3:35 p.m.

John Wright Co-Chair and Deputy Minister of Health, Government of Saskatchewan, Conference of Deputy Ministers of Health

Thank you, Mr. Chair and members of the committee. I am indeed pleased to be back before you to assist in your final deliberations.

Before I begin my formal remarks, I wish to advise the committee that, as I'm sure you can appreciate, Dr. Sanders and I are neither of us in a position to make any commitments here today to you. However, we are certainly happy to listen to your thoughts, your words of wisdom and suggestions and recommendations, and take them back to the Conference of Deputy Ministers for their deliberations.

Mr. Chair, you and other members of the committee should be in receipt of a letter I sent you dated June 6. I would like to take this opportunity to read that letter into the record as part of the formal presentation on behalf of the Conference of Deputy Ministers of Health.

Over the course of the seven hearings held by the Standing Committee on Health related to the common drug review, there have been a number of themes continuously repeated and reinforced by both the pharmaceutical industry and their patient advocacy partners. I believe these themes or messages, as portrayed, are inaccurate and misleading. I wish to correct these inaccuracies for the committee in five specific areas: ownership, accountability to Canadians, CDR transparency, duplication of process, and compliance with CDR recommendations.

I go to the first item: ownership.

The committee has been led to believe that CADTH and the CDR are not “owned” by anyone and as such, are not accountable. This is not appropriate.

The CDR is owned by the 13 provincial/territorial deputy ministers of health and the federal deputy minister of health that established it.

As stewards of their respective health care systems, these deputy ministers take this ownership and the work of CDR very seriously and they report back regularly to their elected ministers of health. Under this governance structure, CADTH and the CDR are very much accountable. I quote from the presentation I made to the Standing Committee, which states the federal/provincial/territorial position: “We want to assure you that CADTH, which is owned and governed by the Conference of Deputy Ministers of Health, is fully accountable to the CDM. In fact, in our opinion, CADTH is one of the most accountable national agencies existing in Canada today.”

The second item is accountability to Canadians.

The CDR is not failing Canadians. In fact, through the rigorous, objective, and independent information obtained by the CDR, governments are able to make decisions that protect the public from harm, ensure improved health outcomes, and contribute to the long-term sustainability of Canada's health care system.

The Canadian public, as patients and taxpayers, expect nothing less of their governments in determining which drugs should be made available through the publicly funded drug benefit system.

Canada has faced drug recalls that have harmed Canadians. Governments must do whatever it takes to manage such risks. The CDR contributes to this goal, it is working, it is helping Canadians, and it is here to stay.

The third item is CDR transparency.

Industry has consistently attacked what it views as a total lack of transparency in the CDR's processes. This is far from the truth. To my knowledge, the CDR is the only drug reimbursement committee in Canada to make the reasons for its recommendations publicly available. This is a significant improvement from what existed prior to the establishment of the CDR.

The CDR continues to set new transparency standards for drug reimbursement in Canada and abroad. Based on the 2005 evaluation of CDR, further steps have already been taken to improve transparency. Chief among these was the appointment of two public representatives as voting members on the Canadian Expert Drug Advisory Committee. In addition, with the CDM's new funding, CADTH is implementing plans this year to produce lay versions of CDR recommendations, the reviews upon which these recommendations are based, and to publish the minutes of the CEDAC meetings.

While the CDM wholly supports calls for greater transparency in the CDR process, the fact is that greater transparency should be a two-way street. For example, we would recommend that drug companies make their submissions to the CDR public. Greater industry transparency could be achieved by making the protocols of all studies available so that comparisons can be made with the final clinical results. We also suggest that the financial relationships between pharmaceutical companies, the disease-oriented groups they support, and those who develop clinical practice guidelines should be fully disclosed.

I go to the fourth item, duplication of process.

The committee has been told repeatedly that the provincial and territorial drug plans repeat the work of the CDR. This is a gross misrepresentation of the facts. I am aware the committee has received individual submissions from most provinces. In those submissions, the provinces clearly state that they do not duplicate the work of the CDR, rather they consider the CDR recommendations in light of their own jurisdictional priorities, needs, and resources. The rigorously derived clinical and cost-effective evidence the CDR provides, combined with the other considerations, is an essential step in the drug plan coverage decision-making process and will continue to take place.

Prior to the CDR, the pharmaceutical industry played the provinces against one another. They would attempt to have the drug approved for coverage in one province and then apply pressure politically in the other provinces. This was not in the best interest of Canadians. With the CDR providing the same high-quality evidence and advice to all drug plans, industry no longer has this option open to it. Instead, through intensive lobbying over the last year, they've decided it is in their best interest to make the CDR look as though it is not working. You have heard directly from the provinces--CDR is working and it is meeting the objectives set out for it. The CDM is steadfastly confident it will continue to do so.

With respect to the fifth and final element, compliance with CDR recommendations, the individual submissions made to the committee by the provincial drug plans clearly state that their decisions are in compliance with the CDR recommendations. A detailed table identifying all drugs reviewed by the CDR and the level of compliance by jurisdictions is attached to my letter. It shows there is a 90% compliance rate with the CDR recommendations across all jurisdictions, and the deviations relate to specific listing conditions rather than a complete reversal of the recommendation. Given that the funding of drugs under provincial drug plans is entirely the decision of each province, a compliance rate of 90% is very high. In fact, the CDR offers the opportunity to move toward even greater standardization in drug coverage across jurisdictions, which is a publicly stated objective of the Conference of Deputy Ministers of Health.

The message being conveyed by industry is that there is a lack of compliance with the CDR recommendations. Let the facts speak for themselves.

In closing, the Conference of Deputy Ministers of Health wants to thank the standing committee for giving it the opportunity to set the record straight. The CDM fully supports the CDR as an invaluable service to Canadians. As the owners of the CDR, the CDM will be interested in the observations brought forward by the standing committee.

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

3:45 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Rob Merrifield

Thank you very much.

Now we'll move on to Dr. Sanders.

3:45 p.m.

Dr. Jill Sanders President and Chief Executive Officer, Canadian Agency for Drugs and Technologies in Health

Good afternoon, Mr. Chair and members of the committee.

I'd also like to thank you for inviting us back for a second appearance, and I hope we can help you and contribute further to your study. I am Dr. Jill Sanders, the CEO and president of CADTH, and I'm joined today by Mike Tierney, vice-president responsible for the common drug review, here to answer any additional questions.

As Mr. Wright has already noted, over the past few weeks this committee has heard various points of view from a wide range of groups and individuals regarding the common drug review. It continues to be our position that the CDR program is not only working but it is working very well, and this position, as you've just heard, is supported by the federal drug plans, the 13 provincial and territorial jurisdictional stakeholders, and the majority of the independent experts who have appeared before you.

Yes, there are challenges in this complex and crucially important element of the drug reimbursement continuum in Canada, but I am pleased to note that throughout the past three-year history of the common drug review, it has shown it has made changes and it will continue to evolve to meet the challenges on behalf of Canadians.

I'd like to take a minute just to reiterate the critical elements, the critical stages of the CDR process, because I feel this is important to provide context for some of the other remarks I will be making.

As you know, the process starts with a drug manufacturer making a submission for their new drug to the CDR, and that includes clinical data and an economic evaluation.

The CDR program then establishes a review team of both internal and external experts that include clinical specialists with direct expertise related to the drug under review. This review team is engaged at all stages of the review process. Using vigorous and universally accepted processes, the review team conducts the independent systematic review of the available published and unpublished clinical evidence, and it appraises the cost-effectiveness of the drug, including both cost and value to Canadians, based on the economic model provided by the manufacturer.

The manufacturer is then provided with a copy of the reviews for comment and the CDR responds to any of the manufacturer's comments.

CEDAC, which is the independent committee that makes the recommendations comprising its clinical and scientific experts and two public members, reviews the noted materials and makes a listing recommendation. The members of that committee are nominated and selected by a national nominating committee, which ensures a balance of expertise, including medical, scientific, clinical practice, economic and evaluation expertise, and public representation. The membership of CEDAC is not selected along geopolitical lines.

CEDAC itself may also choose to call upon some experts who may not have already been called to the process, and they may also ask for additional information to be brought forward if they feel there is a need.

The CEDAC recommendations and reasons are sent to the manufacturer and the drug plans in confidence ,and we have what we refer to as an embargo period, during which the manufacturer may request a reconsideration based on specified criteria and the drug plans can ask for a clarification. The final recommendations and reasons are sent to the manufacturer and drug plans and released publicly, or if a reconsideration is requested, CEDAC undertakes this process.

I hope you find this quick summary helpful in demonstrating very briefly that the CDR process affords equal opportunity to all parties to have extensive input into the process--the manufacturer, the drug plans, the experts, and the expert advisory committee that comprises some public members.

This notwithstanding, it is still important to ask if there is room for more improvement. Our response would be yes, of course. In fact, under the leadership of Minister Clement, the co-chair for the FPT Ministerial Task Force on National Pharmaceutical Strategy or the NPS, many of the areas of improvement sought by those appearing before this committee have been identified in the NPS report that was issued last September.

This NPS report sets out clear recommendations, all of which are aimed at further harmonizing reimbursement decision-making among the federal, provincial, and territorial jurisdictions and thereby supporting more consistent access for Canadians to safe and effective drugs.

The framework for action outlined in the NPS report will guide much of the future work for CDR. Nonetheless, we continue to be open to exploring different avenues for improvement of the ongoing work on behalf of Canadians.

Chief among these is the issue of increased transparency. The CDR has, as Mr. Mr. Wright has just noted, set new standards of transparency for drug reimbursement in Canada and internationally. We still continue to make enhancements in transparency. As Mr. Wright has noted, work is well under way to implement the initiatives arising from the evaluation of fall 2005.

In addition to these concrete measures already in progress, we remain open to other possibilities to increase transparency and will take forward options for consideration to the participating drug plans. These may include, for example, consideration for industry, patients, and other stakeholders to play a role in the CEDAC process, and a review of the current reconsideration, or what some would term “appeal”, process.

It is important when considering these potential changes that the aggressive CDR timelines, which facilitate timely patient access and have all been met to date, are not compromised. In addition, there are cost implications, and these must be evaluated with the participating jurisdictions.

It is equally important to note that transparency must be applied to all sides of the equation, as Mr. Wright has noted, if we are to improve on current processes. In other words, and as briefly mentioned, industry submissions to both Health Canada and CDR should be made public. The justification for the price of individual drugs should be provided, and patient advocacy groups and those who develop clinical guidelines should disclose the nature of their relationship with the industry.

A second area I would like to speak about is the concern expressed by the pharmaceutical industry and their patient advocacy partners regarding access to innovative drugs and drugs for rare diseases. It has been said that CDR is a barrier to access of new treatments for patients. The fact is that in the five years prior to CDR, the largest drug plan in Canada--the Ontario drug benefit program--approved approximately 44% of the drugs they reviewed, which is just slightly lower than the 50% average that CDR has to date. These numbers are similar enough within the statistics to be considered very equal. The drugs recommended by CDR have also included new biologics for rheumatoid arthritis and psoriasis, seven HIV/AIDs drugs, three cancer drugs, and a new drug for life-threatening infections. In other words, the facts do not support the stated claim that CDR is a barrier to new treatments.

Further to the matter of access, I know you're aware that comprehensive recommendations to address this issue were contained in the NPS report. We will continue to work with the NPS to achieve its stated objectives pertaining to increased access, including a common national formulary; a national framework for expensive drugs for rare diseases, which we would like to see developed sooner rather than later; and post-market surveillance.

Once these directions and policies have taken place, many of the concerns you've heard about in the course of your study will have been addressed. However, you have been led to believe that CDR is the root cause of all of these issues. This is simply not true. The CDR is just one player, and as I believe you'll appreciate, it will take all of us working together to address these important issues. For its part, CDR is very willing and would look forward to continuing to work with the industry to establish how clinical trial evidence and economic analyses for drugs serving small populations can be best produced and then utilized in the drug reimbursement decisions. In other words, if we work together, it will be to everybody's benefit.

A third area of criticism you have heard repeatedly is that CDR is only about cost containment. Again, I feel it's necessary to set that record straight. The health outcomes of the target population group of the drug in question are of paramount importance when CDR undertakes a review. Cost-effectiveness is considered only once improved health outcomes have been demonstrated. And to be clear, our cost-effectiveness assessment does look at other costs within the health care system, such as doctor visits and hospitalization. And importantly, CDR does look at improvement in survival and quality of life for Canadians.

You've heard the testimony of at least two independent international experts that Canada is a recognized world leader in how it conducts its drug reviews because the CDR focuses on costs less than all countries except the U.K.

When Steve Morgan from the University of British Columbia appeared here as a witness, he responded to the statement that was made, that CDR is solely preoccupied with cost containment, and I quote: “Although CDR is criticized for that, I think it's patently incorrect, because Canada is one of the exceptions to the extent that it focuses on science rather than economics.”

At the end of the day, what the analysis must show is whether a new drug is clinically superior to existing comparable therapies and whether it represents good value for Canadians and the health care system. It is the full picture that is assessed, and we believe this is what the public, as taxpayers and patients, would expect.

The last area I will touch on relates to timely access. The CDR continues to meet the aggressive timelines established for it, and we're not a barrier to access. The CDR process currently makes up about one-third of the total time from a submission to Health Canada for licensing to a listing decision within a public drug formulary. CDR has no influence or control over the Health Canada licence approval timelines nor the drug plan decision timelines.

This said, we are continually looking at ways to build more efficiency into our system, and as a result, for example, CDR will continue to streamline its processes for less complex drugs. We will continue to work with Health Canada on collaborative review processes, and we will continue to encourage industry to make their submissions to us in a timely fashion.

These are just the beginnings of initiatives we at CADTH intend to carry out. As I've already noted, throughout the short history of the CDR, it has been shown that we have evolved and will continue to evolve to meet new challenges on behalf of Canadians.

If there has been one unifying thing during the past few weeks of often conflicting presentations, it is that the demands placed on Canada's publicly funded health systems in Canada are enormous. At CADTH we understand that achieving the balance of optimized care, accessibility, equity, affordability, and sustainability for all Canadians is every government's goal. This naturally means that difficult decisions must be made throughout the system. The CDR has played a positive role in assisting with the critical decision-making around pharmaceuticals.

At the recent CADTH symposium, Steven Fletcher, Parliamentary Secretary to the Minister of Health, addressed the reception on behalf of Minister Clement. Mr. Fletcher noted, and I quote:

Canada's new government is committed to supporting work to ensure that emerging technologies are not only safe but also effective and cost-effective. While most new drugs and technologies hold significant promise, it is important that we invest wisely in those products that can bring the greatest improvements to the health of Canadians.

We couldn't agree more. This statement speaks to the very core of CDR and its value to the Canadian health care system.

Before I conclude, Mr. Chair, I would ask if it's possible for you to take a few moments to tell us what the next steps are, the timelines, and what expectations you might have from us as the process moves forward.

Finally, thank you very much for your time. Thank you once again for inviting us back. As always, we're happy to answer questions. Thank you.

3:55 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Rob Merrifield

Thank you very much.

We'll now move on to the question and answer period. We'll open the floor to Ms. Susan Kadis.

3:55 p.m.

Liberal

Susan Kadis Liberal Thornhill, ON

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Thank you for your presentations today.

I'd like to ask specifically, initially, Dr. Sanders to tell us a little bit about how the recommendations are made public. I know we've touched on this before, but could you elaborate on that, and on whether it's just the actual recommendations--the decision--that's made public, or whether, as is the case in the U.K., they're giving much more information, as you noted, justifying why that particular decision has been made?

What I have gleaned from a lot of the witnesses, and I think others here have as well, is that this frustration seems to be significantly related to a lack of information and understanding. Of course, you can't have understanding without information, and it is completely related to the accountability of any process.

What are you presently making available to the public?

4 p.m.

President and Chief Executive Officer, Canadian Agency for Drugs and Technologies in Health

Dr. Jill Sanders

I'm going to ask Mr. Tierney to answer the question, but also to refer to what we're about to implement.

Thank you.

4 p.m.

Mike Tierney Vice-President, Common Drug Review, Canadian Agency for Drugs and Technologies in Health

Currently we make public the recommendations, the key reasons for those recommendations, and a summary of the other information considered by the committee. That document is typically one and a half pages to two pages long. It would provide details concerning the design of the clinical trials and the results of the clinical trials, as well as a comment on the economics and cost-effectiveness of the drug.

We realize--and this in part was addressed in the evaluation of CDR done in 2005--that there can be more transparency. In the coming year, we will be publishing more in-depth reviews of the committee considerations, and those will probably be in the range of 15 to 20 pages, to summarize the clinical and economic aspects of the drug in question.

4 p.m.

Liberal

Susan Kadis Liberal Thornhill, ON

Along those lines, how would you characterize the information that is currently being put out there publicly? Would you say it's of a more general nature, or more summarial or superficial, and you would be looking to giving more depth and detail and elaboration down the road?

4 p.m.

Vice-President, Common Drug Review, Canadian Agency for Drugs and Technologies in Health

Mike Tierney

It will certainly be more in-depth and more detailed. Right now there is technical information and numbers--i.e., the percentage of patients who respond to a certain therapy, any changes in morbidity, mortality, in percentages--but it's more like an abstract of the study. In future there will be much more detail provided.

As well, the information is presented right now in quite a technical format. It's written for the drug plans and for health care professionals. Again, in the coming year we'll be making available lay versions of those reasons for recommendations.

4 p.m.

Liberal

Susan Kadis Liberal Thornhill, ON

What about in terms of membership and participation on the decision-making bodies of the CDR in particular, in terms of expanding that? Is that something you would be considering? Recent testimony seemed to be fairly consistent that various groups would like to have some participation and definitely more input into the decision-making process itself.

4 p.m.

Co-Chair and Deputy Minister of Health, Government of Saskatchewan, Conference of Deputy Ministers of Health

John Wright

If I may, on behalf of the council of deputy ministers, that's something we would look at and take under advisement or recommendation. Certainly we've added, as a result of the 2005 review, two public representatives to the review committee.

I certainly wouldn't want to get into a situation whereby we had advocacy groups as members of the committee. We need to keep the independence of this group, the professionalism of this group, quite clear. But we'd look at it, as long as we didn't end up in situations where there would be foxes in henhouses.

4 p.m.

Liberal

Susan Kadis Liberal Thornhill, ON

Also, in terms of first-in-class drugs, one of you mentioned that you're not providing a barrier to new drugs and therapies, as some have maintained. Those concerns were put forward at various times along the way in our testimony. The impression I was getting was that it's a very low level of first-in-class drugs being recommended for listing.

Is that inaccurate information, then, that some have suggested to us?

4 p.m.

Vice-President, Common Drug Review, Canadian Agency for Drugs and Technologies in Health

Mike Tierney

First of all, it's difficult to agree on what are first-in-class drugs. One of the ways we've tried to analyze this is that manufacturers can submit to us a drug for priority review on clinical grounds. A drug that the manufacturer believes to be available to treat a very serious or life-threatening condition, for which no other treatment is available in Canada, you could consider to be a first-in-class drug.

When we've looked at those drugs that we've reviewed and the percentage of those that have received a positive recommendation, it's about the same for all of the other drugs. It's around 50%. So we don't believe there's a difference in how we review those drugs that get priority review.

4 p.m.

Liberal

Susan Kadis Liberal Thornhill, ON

To all of you, or as many as we have time for, would you say that you'd acknowledge that some, anyway, of the frustrations put forward by witnesses have been legitimate?

You say in here that it is “not only working but it is working very well”. That would suggest that you don't think there are too many significant issues associated with it, going forward, that it's on pretty solid ground. I guess I'd like to hear if you believe or acknowledge some of the concerns that have been raised since we've been hearing this issue. It's been quite a while now, and it's been fairly extensive and, again, fairly consistent with some of that frustration.

4:05 p.m.

Co-Chair and Deputy Minister of Health, Government of Saskatchewan, Conference of Deputy Ministers of Health

John Wright

I have not reviewed all the transcripts, all the information, but on what I have been informed of, I see no legitimacy to the issues that have been brought to my attention. The Conference of Deputy Ministers discussed this as recently as two weeks ago, and briefly again last week. We haven't seen legitimate objections to the current CDR process.

4:05 p.m.

Liberal

Susan Kadis Liberal Thornhill, ON

It's a little bit of a discrepancy, then. I just heard today that you believe there are ways that it can be made and should be made more transparent even than what it is today--and more accountable.

4:05 p.m.

Co-Chair and Deputy Minister of Health, Government of Saskatchewan, Conference of Deputy Ministers of Health

John Wright

There's always room for improvement. There's always room to make it more transparent, more accountable. But the concerns that have been brought to my attention I don't view as legitimate.

4:05 p.m.

Liberal

Susan Kadis Liberal Thornhill, ON

Finally, do you believe--up to this point, anyway--the CDR process is accountable?

4:05 p.m.

Co-Chair and Deputy Minister of Health, Government of Saskatchewan, Conference of Deputy Ministers of Health

4:05 p.m.

Liberal

Susan Kadis Liberal Thornhill, ON

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

4:05 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Rob Merrifield

Thank you.

Madame Gagnon.

4:05 p.m.

Bloc

Christiane Gagnon Bloc Québec, QC

Thank you.

Mr. Wright, at the beginning of your presentation, you said that the CDR was an efficient organization. We understand that it is not our job to make recommendations on how to improve the understanding and efficiency of the CDR. However, witnesses have told us the exact opposite. Some even told us that the CDR should not even exist at all and that it has not improved the situation. Others chose their words more carefully.

Is it true that every single first category drugs and 75% of natural drugs were rejected when they were evaluated by the CDR?

Quebec has its own process. It seems to be much more open to these types of products than the CDR. Does this mean that our role is to make sure a drug is effective, but at a reasonable and fair cost? Does it then follow that this is not Quebec's priority? If you want to give patients what they need to improve their quality of life, don't you think that you are missing the main objective, which is to make the best products available to patients?

I would like you to answer these questions, Mr. Wright.

4:05 p.m.

Co-Chair and Deputy Minister of Health, Government of Saskatchewan, Conference of Deputy Ministers of Health

John Wright

Governments have multiple responsibilities and they have to balance them. They are responsible to taxpayers--that's where the revenue comes from. They are responsible to patients for the health care system.

When I was here last, many of the members of the committee spoke about the need for innovative therapies--well, of course, but also those that are cost-effective. One has to recognize the role of the taxpayer in this, otherwise in due course we'd all be bankrupt as governments. There's no question about that.

So I think this is a balancing of interests--the interests of the taxpayers, the interests of the patients, and of course let us not forget the drug companies. Many drug companies have their own particular interests.

As to the priorities of the Quebec government and how it conducts its business, it would be very unfair of me to begin to comment on that.

I appreciate that people have said to blow it up, and from their perspective perhaps that's correct. But here we have 13 provinces and territories and a federal government that have come together in a unique relationship to build a process that we consider extremely promising--one that works and balances the interests of the patients and the taxpayers to provide innovative therapies that are cost-effective to the people of this great country.

4:10 p.m.

Bloc

Christiane Gagnon Bloc Québec, QC

Some witnesses told us that when a province informed them that the CDR had rejected their application, they didn't know to whom to turn even if that drug worked better for certain patients. You keep on passing the buck. Since people can't appeal their cases to a tribunal or an independent committee, do you think we should recommend the creation of such a body?