Health Committee on March 21st, 2024

[Mark Holland, Liberal, Ajax, ON]

We have been having excellent consultations. Those consultations have resulted in our making sure that we're adapting the information that we're hearing from industry and from users of natural health products.

I think it's important to note that it is an exploding industry and that it has great utility, but making sure that folks are getting what they are actually buying, making sure there is appropriate quality control and making sure there are on-site inspections and folks are aware of adverse impacts if they use the product or if they're on another drug or they have the susceptibility to winding up in a circumstance where they would have an adverse reaction to using it, that's really essential information. That's “saving lives” kind of information.

We can't set that aside. We need to continue to work on that while we work through the concerns of industry. That's precisely what we've been doing.

[The Chair, Liberal, Sean Casey]

Thank you, Minister.

Dr. Ellis, go ahead for five minutes, please.

[Stephen Ellis, Conservative, Cumberland—Colchester, NS]

Thank you very much, Chair.

You know, Minister, you've been very careless with your use of the truth here today. That's very sad on behalf of Canadians. We know very clearly that the president of PHAC was called to the bar of the House of Commons. We know that your government, your Liberal government, took the Speaker to court to prevent these documents from coming to light. We also know that your government called a COVID election to prevent these documents from coming to light.

Your application is reckless. It's careless on behalf of Canadians. Sadly, that is what we've come to expect from you—not to mention that you've been exceedingly careless with the truths you have expounded on in a multitude of other topics today.

That being said, who is accountable for this egregious breach of security? Who is it?

[Mark Holland, Liberal, Ajax, ON]

In the first order, I will completely reject and disagree with what you said at the beginning. The dispute that occurred within the House of Commons was that the government of the day, which was our government, said that, on this matter, all the documents could be seen at NSICOP. The position of Parliament was that they wanted to table-drop national security documents.

We can't let that happen. Treating national security documents carelessly would have profound implications for our Five Eyes partners. We de-escalated that, as you will recall, by my suggesting that we have an ad hoc process with a group of analysts and arbiters who could independently review those documents and make them available.

Everything that I said, to the letter, is true. You saying something isn't true, while an interesting rhetorical device, doesn't make it true.

[Stephen Ellis, Conservative, Cumberland—Colchester, NS]

Thank you very much, Minister. Obviously, the same is true for you. The facts speak for themselves, considering the fact that you don't even know what's in the documents.

Who is accountable for this mess? Who is it?

[Mark Holland, Liberal, Ajax, ON]

Who's accountable? I am accountable.

[Stephen Ellis, Conservative, Cumberland—Colchester, NS]

You are. Excellent.

Who will you hold to account at PHAC?

[Mark Holland, Liberal, Ajax, ON]

I believe PHAC acted in a way, always, in the highest order—

[Stephen Ellis, Conservative, Cumberland—Colchester, NS]

I didn't ask you that, Minister. I asked you who you will hold to account.

[Mark Holland, Liberal, Ajax, ON]

I have looked at the situation—

[Stephen Ellis, Conservative, Cumberland—Colchester, NS]

I didn't ask you that.

[Mark Holland, Liberal, Ajax, ON]

—and I believe PHAC handled the situation—

[Stephen Ellis, Conservative, Cumberland—Colchester, NS]

I asked you who you will hold to account. Who is it?

[Mark Holland, Liberal, Ajax, ON]

Me.

[Stephen Ellis, Conservative, Cumberland—Colchester, NS]

Who at PHAC? Who's going to lose their job over this?

[Mark Holland, Liberal, Ajax, ON]

Nobody.

[Stephen Ellis, Conservative, Cumberland—Colchester, NS]

Nobody. There was an act of treason.

Of course, treason is defined in the Criminal Code of Canada—

[Mark Holland, Liberal, Ajax, ON]

Who are you accusing of treason?

[Stephen Ellis, Conservative, Cumberland—Colchester, NS]

—as the sharing of “military or scientific information”—

[Mark Holland, Liberal, Ajax, ON]

Who are you accusing of treason?

[Stephen Ellis, Conservative, Cumberland—Colchester, NS]

—with an agent of a foreign state.

[Mark Holland, Liberal, Ajax, ON]

Who are you accusing of treason?

[Stephen Ellis, Conservative, Cumberland—Colchester, NS]

Listen, I'm not here for you to ask questions.

[Mark Holland, Liberal, Ajax, ON]

If you're going to accuse somebody of treason, you're absolutely going to answer for it.

[Stephen Ellis, Conservative, Cumberland—Colchester, NS]

You are here to answer my questions, Minister.