Evidence of meeting #98 for Health in the 44th Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was evidence.

A video is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Samuel Weiss  Scientific Director, Institute of Neurosciences, Mental Health and Addiction, Canadian Institutes of Health Research
Eric Costen  Associate Deputy Minister, Department of Health
Jennifer Saxe  Associate Assistant Deputy Minister, Controlled Substances and Cannabis Branch, Department of Health
Theresa Tam  Chief Public Health Officer of Canada, Public Health Agency of Canada
Nancy Hamzawi  Executive Vice-President, Public Health Agency of Canada

11 a.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Sean Casey

I call this meeting to order.

Welcome to meeting number 98 of the House of Commons Standing Committee on Health.

Today's meeting is taking place in a hybrid format, pursuant to the Standing Orders.

In accordance with our routine motion, I'm informing the committee that all remote participants have completed the required connection test in advance of the meeting.

Pursuant to Standing Order 108(2) and the motion adopted on November 8, 2023, the committee is resuming its study of the opioid epidemic and toxic drug crisis in Canada.

We are joined today for the first hour of the meeting by the Minister of Mental Health and Addictions, the Honourable Ya’ara Saks. Welcome, Minister.

Accompanying the minister, we have officials who will remain for the full meeting.

From the Canadian Institutes of Health Research, we have Dr. Samuel Weiss, scientific director, Institute of Neurosciences, Mental Health and Addiction.

From the Department of Health, we have Dr. Stephen Lucas, deputy minister; Eric Costen, associate deputy minister; and Jennifer Saxe, associate assistant deputy minister, controlled substances and cannabis branch.

From the Public Health Agency of Canada, we have Dr. Theresa Tam, chief public health officer of Canada, and Nancy Hamzawi, executive vice-president.

Thank you all for taking the time to appear today.

Minister Saks, you have the floor for the next five minutes. Welcome.

11 a.m.

Liberal

The Honourable Ya'ara Saks Liberal Ya'ara Saks

Thank you, Mr. Chair, and thank you, honourable members, for inviting me here today to share what will be a thorough discussion on this study. I am pleased to be here today to contribute to your important study of the toxic illegal drug and overdose crisis.

This crisis is so widespread that no family, and indeed no Canadian, is untouched by it. I expect you have heard from families, frontline workers, researchers, and health and other experts of the tremendous toll that the crisis is taking across Canada.

Many dedicated people and organizations are working tirelessly and relentlessly to provide a range of much-needed supports to some of the most vulnerable and marginalized people in our country. They are saving lives, providing hope and helping people find their paths toward well-being and health. These are the tireless heroes of the crisis who show up in the most challenging of circumstances. They deserve nothing short of our complete support and gratitude.

I have been fortunate enough to meet with many of them across the country. Their stories and dedication inspire me and so many others in their communities. They have shared with me that the deep polarization and misinformation that has coloured the debate in Canada regarding this crisis is not helping them. In fact, it is making their challenging work that much harder.

I’ve pledged to them that I will work to amplify their voices and share their good work. We must not forget that everyone working in this field and everyone around this table shares the same singular goal: We are here to save lives.

To that end, our government has put compassion and dignity at the centre of our comprehensive strategy to address the harms of this crisis. We are investing in a continuum of supports, from education and prevention through to expanded access to quality treatment, aftercare and recovery services.

Prevention and treatment are two ends of the spectrum, but we must also care for the lives of people who are struggling in between those spaces. The reality is that we must provide necessary resources to people who use drugs to minimize the risk as much as possible while they are on their path towards recovery.

We are tracking our public health interventions and we can see where they are working. Across supervised consumption sites, the number of overdose responses attended to between October 2017 and September 2023 was over 52,000. Additionally, more than 260,000 referrals were made to connect people with health and social services to help them towards recovery, but it is abundantly clear that no single intervention will turn the tide. It will take the collective effort of everyone.

As you will be aware, our government made historic investments to provinces and territories to increase access to mental health and substance use services.

Colleagues, we need to make mental health and substance use care a full and equal part of our universal health care system. In support of our shared efforts, I’ve convened an FPT table of ministers of mental health and addictions that meets quarterly to collaborate on these important priorities.

Additionally, I am working closely with my cabinet colleagues to address health and social factors that can impact an individual’s risk of substance use-related harms.

For example, I am working with Minister Hajdu to advance work towards reconciliation and support indigenous peoples to develop distinction-based solutions to address the impacts of this crisis. Alongside Minister Fraser, we are focused on improving access to supportive housing, which is one of the most important things needed to help someone stabilize their life and find their path to recovery. I am also working with Minister LeBlanc to address public safety and the role of organized crime in the production, diversion and trafficking of toxic illegal drugs.

We have a whole-of-government strategy. This is the Canada model. We are confident that by working together with a comprehensive response, we can make progress on this critically important priority.

Thank you. I look forward to your questions.

11:05 a.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Sean Casey

Thank you, Minister.

We're going to start with questions now, beginning with the Conservatives for six minutes.

Go ahead, Dr. Ellis, please.

11:05 a.m.

Conservative

Stephen Ellis Conservative Cumberland—Colchester, NS

Thanks, Chair.

Thanks, Minister, for being here.

One of the things we say in medicine is primum non nocere: “Above all, do no harm”. We would like you to table the data from which your government draws its information, to tell us and Canadians when you're going to end this dangerous experiment.

11:05 a.m.

Liberal

Ya'ara Saks Liberal York Centre, ON

I thank the member for his question.

As he's aware.... I'm happy to table here all data of our programs, and the evidence that we have collected from our SUAP projects and other interventions is available on our website. We're happy to table it here.

I'm not really sure what you are referring to in terms of an experiment. Could the colleague clarify, please?

11:05 a.m.

Conservative

Stephen Ellis Conservative Cumberland—Colchester, NS

Thanks very much, Minister.

I appreciate that, because those were the words of Dr. Hanley in saying that this is an “experiment”. It's in the original motion here that the decriminalization of drugs that you're doing hand in glove with B.C. and the so-called safer supply is an experiment. Could you actually table with this committee the official government data to show that the so-called safe supply saves lives?

11:05 a.m.

Liberal

Ya'ara Saks Liberal York Centre, ON

Chair, the B.C. dashboard is available with all of the evidence collected to date within the first year of the pilot. We're actually coming to the first-year anniversary since the B.C. government requested the exemption on decriminalization of personal possession. All of that data is available, and we're happy to table it. However, as the colleague well knows, this is a three-year pilot program.

11:05 a.m.

Conservative

Stephen Ellis Conservative Cumberland—Colchester, NS

Clearly, Minister, we know that the number of deaths is going up every day now. It now stands at about 22 across our great country. When will you end this dangerous experiment?

11:05 a.m.

Liberal

Ya'ara Saks Liberal York Centre, ON

The question is, how will we continue to save lives? That is my answer to “when”. We will not stop providing health care—

11:05 a.m.

Conservative

Stephen Ellis Conservative Cumberland—Colchester, NS

I'm sorry, Minister, but I'm going to interrupt you there, because my question was that 22 people are dying every day. That's increasing. Everybody here knows it. Everybody across the country knows it. That is getting worse. When will you decide to end the dangerous experiment?

11:05 a.m.

Liberal

Ya'ara Saks Liberal York Centre, ON

My answer will be that we will never stop providing medical health care services and interventions to those who use drugs and substances. Every life lost is one too many—

11:05 a.m.

Conservative

Stephen Ellis Conservative Cumberland—Colchester, NS

Minister, excuse me. Are you suggesting that the so-called safe supply is a medically necessary and medically proven therapy?

11:05 a.m.

Liberal

Ya'ara Saks Liberal York Centre, ON

I am suggesting that the entire comprehensive approach for the continuum of care, which includes a wide range of medical health services and interventions, is something that we are fully committed to in order to save lives in this country.

11:10 a.m.

Conservative

Stephen Ellis Conservative Cumberland—Colchester, NS

Minister, I guess what I hear you saying.... Correct me if I'm wrong, but is there any evidence that could possibly exist that would make you and your dangerous experiment.... Even though the numbers are getting worse every year, you're not stopping it. You're telling us it's going to go on for three years. Is there anything that's going to make you stop the dangerous experiment? You're hiring people....

11:10 a.m.

Liberal

Ya'ara Saks Liberal York Centre, ON

The reality today is that the illegal toxic drug supply is pervasive and deadly. I do not see any government stopping in its efforts to save lives from what is such a dangerous and pervasive illegal distribution of drugs across this country.

11:10 a.m.

Conservative

Stephen Ellis Conservative Cumberland—Colchester, NS

Even though you know it's harming people, from the studies that are out there—science—you're going to continue that harm. That's what you're telling Canadians...?

11:10 a.m.

Liberal

Ya'ara Saks Liberal York Centre, ON

The incidence of overdoses today shows that the majority of overdose deaths are from the illegal toxic drug supply, and we will continue to fight and save lives.

11:10 a.m.

Conservative

Stephen Ellis Conservative Cumberland—Colchester, NS

Minister, as a little demonstration here, we talked about decriminalization. This is not drugs: This is actually sugar. This is two and a half grams. Realistically, the density is about the same as fentanyl. It's for Canadians out there to understand that this is two and a half grams.

We also know very clearly that from—

11:10 a.m.

Liberal

Jenica Atwin Liberal Fredericton, NB

On a point of order—

11:10 a.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Sean Casey

Go ahead, Ms. Atwin, on a point of order.

11:10 a.m.

Liberal

Jenica Atwin Liberal Fredericton, NB

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I'm wondering about the use of props in committee. Can you rule on that, please?

11:10 a.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Sean Casey

I'm advised that the rules regarding the prohibition of props also apply to committee. I would ask you to refrain from that, Dr. Ellis.

11:10 a.m.

Conservative

Stephen Ellis Conservative Cumberland—Colchester, NS

I certainly would like to challenge the chair on that, Chair. I mean, this is absolutely ridiculous. We know that many other committees are more than happy to allow props. That's in every other committee. I've been at natural resources and national defence. Last night in natural resources early on in the week this week, props were used. This is an absolute travesty. We know that the use of props in committee has happened across a multitude of committees in many that I just named. Your ruling, sir, is absolutely incorrect.

11:10 a.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Sean Casey

A challenge to the chair is a non-debatable motion. The question for the committee is about whether the ruling of the chair shall be sustained. The ruling I made was that we will not allow props today, or ever.

Please conduct the vote, Madam Clerk.

(Ruling of the chair sustained: yeas 7; nays 4)

Dr. Ellis, you have two minutes and 18 seconds.

11:10 a.m.

Conservative

Robert Gordon Kitchen Conservative Souris—Moose Mountain, SK

I have a point of order.