Thank you.
Mr. Godin, my apologies. You have five minutes.
Evidence of meeting #12 for Procedure and House Affairs in the 39th Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was list.
Evidence of meeting #12 for Procedure and House Affairs in the 39th Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was list.
12:10 p.m.
Conservative
12:10 p.m.
NDP
Yvon Godin NDP Acadie—Bathurst, NB
I found what Mr. Guimond had to say about photographers interesting.
If I understood you correctly, Mr. Kingsley, you said that current legislation already forbids the use of cameras within polling stations. You said that media have to remain outside and are not allowed to block people's path. The provisions of the act relating to this question are already in force, and we parliamentarians introduced them. So the law has been broken when cameramen are allowed to film party leaders.
How can you explain this?
12:10 p.m.
Chief Electoral Officer, Office of the Chief Electoral Officer
It is a matter of determining what should be the deciding factor for taking legal action against the media.
Given that the committee is studying the subject, I think it should be weighed carefully and directives should be issued. We already issue directives to the media on filming events in polling stations. These directives indicates what they may and may not do in such circumstances.
12:10 p.m.
NDP
Yvon Godin NDP Acadie—Bathurst, NB
Mr. Chairman, I find it hard to believe that only the media are at fault. It is perfectly understandable that they would do all that they can to get their story. If a returning officer lets them in, it is not the media that is at fault. Take the example of the outgoing prime minister. In that instance, the media are not to blame; they were just chasing their story. I understand that, we live in a democracy. What I do not understand is why some people are allowed in when others are not. We have rules. To my mind, it is incumbent upon the returning officer to ensure that they are respected.
When I went to vote, journalists from Radio-Canada wanted to go in with me, but the returning officer categorically refused to let them. I can assure you that the media did not get their way.
12:10 p.m.
Chief Electoral Officer, Office of the Chief Electoral Officer
You argue the case extremely well. I would advise that you continue the debate with those party leaders who invite the media to come along. I will certainly be doing so at the next election. I tried to bring up the matter at the last election, but it did not produce the desired results.
12:10 p.m.
NDP
Yvon Godin NDP Acadie—Bathurst, NB
I would take it even further, Mr. Chairman. I want to know what happens when a returning officer reports to Elections Canada that media tried to film a given individual and did not cooperate when the returning officer tried to stop them, as it is incumbent upon him to do. In such scenarios, legal action ought to be taken against these people.
I do not think that it is up to the party leader to make the decision or cooperate. Nor do I think that the media are to blame. I think that the responsibility lies squarely on the shoulders of the returning officer. Has a returning officer ever told you that he has been prevented from doing his work?
12:10 p.m.
Chief Electoral Officer, Office of the Chief Electoral Officer
Essentially, Mr. Chairman, the responsibility lies with the deputy returning officer. The returning officer is usually in his office.
12:10 p.m.
NDP
12:10 p.m.
Chief Electoral Officer, Office of the Chief Electoral Officer
They try, but...
12:10 p.m.
Chief Electoral Officer, Office of the Chief Electoral Officer
I do not know.
Your question leads me to think that in future, I should make sure that deputy returning officers are particularly well trained on the requirements of the act and that they are ready to kick the media out the door. It is as simple as that. With the committee's permission, that is what I shall do.
12:10 p.m.
NDP
12:10 p.m.
Chief Electoral Officer, Office of the Chief Electoral Officer
I will do that. Consider it done.
12:15 p.m.
Liberal
Raymond Simard Liberal Saint Boniface, MB
Will we have time for another round? If not, I'll share my time.
12:15 p.m.
Conservative
The Chair Conservative Gary Goodyear
Yes, I think we have time for another round, and then I'm going to probably get pointed about some of the issues we haven't covered. If we can get you on track, that would be great, but please, we're going to go for another five-minute round.
12:15 p.m.
Liberal
Raymond Simard Liberal Saint Boniface, MB
Excellent idea, Mr. Chairman.
Mr. Kingsley, the committee has addressed the issue of the voters' list and the potential for fraud. We consider these priorities. Furthermore, I believe that they are connected. In fact, if the list is incomplete, it has no value, and this increases the potential for fraud.
To this end, the example often used is the riding of Trinity—Spadina, where 12,000 voters registered on the day of the election. Furthermore, Mr. Proulx told me that, in his riding, 50,000 people had voted. In mine, approximately 45,000 people voted. However, it is almost impossible to believe that one-third of people who voted were not on the list. Among other things, this means that the candidates were not able to contact them. Mr. Preston said earlier many of these people arrived with a magazine bearing a sticker with their address on it as their only proof of identity. You must be concerned about this.
I want to know whether the provinces generate their lists from yours or is it the other way around. Do you cooperate? The provincial lists must be fairly complete. The voting requirements are essentially the same. Is the wheel being reinvented each time or is there cooperation with the provinces?
Finally, the provinces have to renew their list every two or three years. Do you continue to follow what they are doing, in order to improve the federal list?
12:15 p.m.
Chief Electoral Officer, Office of the Chief Electoral Officer
Mr. Chairman, I proposed a wide range of measures to prevent fraud. They will need to be studied in great depth.
In the riding of Trinity—Spadina, the number of people who registered to vote on voting day was slightly less than 10,000. That is a large number, but this is a riding that, alone, is affected by nearly all the factors of change. Among other things, it contains an immigrant population becoming Canadian, the largest student community in the country and new buildings along Lake Ontario. This situation indicates that a targeted future census and a fixed election date would greatly resolve this problem.
Now, I want to come back to the answer I gave earlier to Mr. Preston about the proof of identity provided at the polling station. I have not made a recommendation in this regard, but if I am addressing this issue here, it is because I am in favour of it. It is one thing if there is a real problem. However, if it is a problem of perception, perhaps the committee could designate certain identity papers, with the approval of Canadians. Such documents should not impose undue hardship on 90 to 95 per cent of individuals. For people not carrying ID, the process would have to be relatively simple. We could later verify whether those individuals made false statements, for example. In fact, we will require them to sign certain documents.
In short, although I have not made an official recommendation on this, I am in favour of this idea. I am open to proposals from the committee. I listened to what was said the last time I appeared here. I recognize the need to address the issue of perception, even though I do not foresee a major problem in this area. Perhaps Canadians will feel more comfortable with the idea that voters have to present ID when voting.
12:20 p.m.
Liberal
Raymond Simard Liberal Saint Boniface, MB
Mr. Kingsley, do you think that it is normal that 10,000 voters should register on election day? Do you think that this is not a case of fraud, but that it is due to demographics. Am I right?
12:20 p.m.
Chief Electoral Officer, Office of the Chief Electoral Officer
For the time being, I believe so. There is no evidence to the contrary. Here, we are dealing with a population of 80,000 students, 30-storey apartment buildings and an immigrant population. There is always at least one riding that does not fall within the norm.
12:20 p.m.
Liberal
Raymond Simard Liberal Saint Boniface, MB
I think that this situation could be an opportunity for a pilot project. As far as I am concerned, if I saw that 10,000 people registered on the same day, I would like to see whether this is due to demographics or to fraud.
12:20 p.m.
Conservative
The Chair Conservative Gary Goodyear
I think we're going to have to move on. Thank you. It's a very good point.
Mr. Reid and then Madam Picard.
12:20 p.m.
Conservative
Scott Reid Conservative Lanark—Frontenac—Lennox and Addington, ON
Thank you, Mr. Chair.
I've just been looking through the material that we were submitted earlier today. When I asked my last question, I was told that the answer to my question was here. I looked through and I see that regarding prosecutions and convictions, there have been four convictions in the last quarter century for voting when not qualified or entitled. Two convictions followed the 1979 general election. For each, the fine was $100. In 1997, there were two cases in which non-Canadians were prosecuted. Both were found guilty and received absolute discharge on proof of charitable contributions in the amount of $300. There was one case of voting when not qualified or entitled during the 2006 general election, which is before the court. There is a grand total of four convictions and one potential conviction in the past quarter century.
My first question is this. How many requests for prosecution have there been?
12:20 p.m.
Commissioner, Elections Canada
All cases that are brought to our attention have the potential of becoming a case for prosecution, but in this particular context of voting fraud, the numbers of complaints we've received have been very limited. Some cases are so obvious they make the papers, for example. One that is before the courts now is a good example of our picking up on something that was publicly--
12:20 p.m.
Conservative
Scott Reid Conservative Lanark—Frontenac—Lennox and Addington, ON
Is this James DiFiore in Toronto? Is that the example?