Procedure and House Affairs Committee on Sept. 13th, 2007

[The Chair, Conservative, Gary Goodyear]

Ladies and gentlemen, let's resume our meeting from this morning, or rather start the meeting, since we did actually adjourn.

You have another agenda in front of you for this afternoon's meeting. Of course, administratively it says 1:15 to 1:30. We're a little bit behind that time, so I'm just going to acknowledge that it's an administrative timeline.

We will start the meeting today with a motion. Can all members just confirm that they have the motion in both official languages in front of them? Everybody has the motion? I think we can proceed with that.

There has been a suggestion already of a slight change in the French version. I'll ask the clerk to identify that slight change and then I'll ask Mr. Poilievre to confirm that that's okay; then we'll have him speak to it.

[James Latimer, Procedural Clerk]

The French text should read as follows:

Mr. Poilievre moves:

That the committee call on the Chief Electoral Officer to use his powers of adaptation to require electors to show their faces before being permitted to vote at voting stations across the country.

So it would be simply adding the word “à” after the word “appel”, and the English text remains. After the word “appel” in French would be the word “à”,

“to use his powers”,

to make it grammatically correct.

[The Chair, Conservative, Gary Goodyear]

Okay.

We're all happy with that, and it seems to make sense.

Mr. Poilievre, are you prepared to speak to this motion then?

We'll open the debate, please.

[Pierre Poilievre, Conservative, Nepean—Carleton, ON]

Yes.

This committee has already called on the Chief Electoral Officer to revise his interpretation of the legislation in order to permit him to force voters to reveal their faces before casting a ballot at a voting booth.

What this motion adds, though, is that we have specifically cited the adaptation power that is available under the law to the Chief Electoral Officer. So here we have given him the clear means by which he can prevent people from voting with covered faces. The section is section 17. He knows that. The power is called the power of adaptation. He should know that, and we as a parliamentary committee have asked that he use that power in this particular case.

I know this motion might be difficult for some members to vote on, particularly for the Liberals among us. They were originally of the view that the legislation allowed the Chief Electoral Officer to prevent people from voting with covered faces. Today they argued, however, that the Chief Electoral Officer's hands are tied, so they've changed their position once already. I'm asking them to change it again. It's particularly in light of the fact that the Chief Electoral Officer himself indicates that he has this power, but he says he's not prepared to use it.

The Chief Electoral Officer argued today that this is a matter of rights, but they are rights that no one is asking for. He seems to be forcing rights on people who don't want them. We've had testimony from a whole series of Islamic groups. We've heard public commentary from groups of various--

[Paul Dewar, NDP, Ottawa Centre, ON]

On a point of order, Chair.

[The Chair, Conservative, Gary Goodyear]

A point of order, please.

[Paul Dewar, NDP, Ottawa Centre, ON]

Mr. Poilievre said that we heard testimony from Islamic groups. I think there was a wider diversity. I don't know if he wants to correct himself.

[The Chair, Conservative, Gary Goodyear]

I don't think that's a point of order. It's a matter of debate.

Mr. Poilievre is just speaking to his motion and he may have clarified that later, but that's not a point of order.

Mr. Poilievre.

[Pierre Poilievre, Conservative, Nepean—Carleton, ON]

There were people who follow Islam amongst the panel, and I don't see how there's any mistake in pointing that out. One of the witnesses in fact called herself “a proud Muslim”, as she should be, and she, along with the rest of the panel, argued that they have never asked for this right, and the groups that have commented in public from various branches of Islam have, in a very dignified fashion, pointed out that they have never asked for these rights. And if I just might say, Mr. Chair, the Muslim community has conducted itself with the utmost grace and dignity throughout this debate. They have had something thrust on them by the Chief Electoral Officer that they did not ask for.

To conclude, the Chief Electoral Officer cannot invent a right that no one is seeking out, and we therefore seek to put forward a specific motion that calls on the Chief Electoral Officer to use the powers that he has in section 17 to force all voters to show their faces when they show up at voting stations.

I look forward to having the support of members. I'm hoping the Liberal Party will change its position again and support this motion to require that people who vote demonstrate their identity by showing their faces.

Thank you.

[The Chair, Conservative, Gary Goodyear]

Thank you very much.

Next, Mr. Proulx, please.

[Marcel Proulx, Liberal, Hull—Aylmer, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Mr. Chair, I'll surprise you; we have no comments.

[The Chair, Conservative, Gary Goodyear]

I'm sorry, I think—that took me a minute. Thank you very much.

Are there any other comments on the debate?

Mr. Dewar, please.

[Paul Dewar, NDP, Ottawa Centre, ON]

Yes, Chair. I just want to clear up a couple of things. One is Mr. Poilievre says the issue was thrust upon the community because of the Chief Electoral Officer. I respectfully disagree with him about that. People who have been observing this debate, reading about the debate, would perhaps suggest that the source of this is not simply the Chief Electoral Officer alone.

However, that said, the position from our party has been clear. As I said, and as I observed in the Moroccan elections, what we should have here is that you show your face; the veil has to be removed to get your ballot.

My concern with the motion is, first of all, the way we came to it, but most importantly it is the understanding of what it can actually do. I think Mr. Lukiwski was trying to have us direct the Chief Electoral Officer as if we were an executive branch of Parliament, which we clearly are not. Our responsibility is to have oversight of legislation when it's written.

I think most people observing the deliberations on this bill, and back in the spring, will have noted that there were some problems in our oversight. It's worth taking responsibility as parliamentarians.

I would argue that the Chief Electoral Officer—as I said in my opening comments, I respectfully disagree with him about how this should be applied. As he suggested, and I don't think he was alone in terms of the people who work in his office, the fact that he had a premise for this objection, which means the way the legislation was written and the fact that back in May, as we saw in media reports, he had underlined this concern and nothing was done.... It wasn't done in the Senate; it wasn't done around this table.

This motion will be passed, it will go forward, and the efficacy of it is what? We know what the response will be. So we can pass this motion—I'll support it—and it's fine, but at the end of the day we have the parties looking for positioning here as opposed to looking for clear oversight of legislation, which I would argue the people around the table missed.

I have stated on the record why we oppose this bill. We voted against it consistently. It was not crafted well. It was done too quickly. We are now seeing the result.

I'll end my comments there and just say it's clear this is a further attempt by the governing party to take attention away from the key issue, which I hope we get to and I hope they're committed to. As soon as we finish this issue, as soon as we vote in favour of it...that we get right to the issue of election financing, which they were going to filibuster yesterday, and did. I'm hoping they won't filibuster after this so that we get right to the issue.

I'm looking for responsibility from the people on the other side to not play around anymore, to quit the games. I know that school is going to be out soon. I think the students should pay attention and get to the business at hand.

So I will be supporting it. I hope they will be supporting actually getting to the business that was in front of us before this issue came to us.

[The Chair, Conservative, Gary Goodyear]

Thank you, Mr. Dewar.

Mr. Reid, please.

[Scott Reid, Conservative, Lanark—Frontenac—Lennox and Addington, ON]

Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

Although I appreciate Mr. Dewar's support for the motion, I think as a matter of practice and fact he's incorrect in his assumption that this would have no efficacy. When we were discussing section 17 of the Elections Act, the Chief Electoral Officer did draw our attention to the fact that these are powers to be used in extraordinary circumstances. He stated he didn't feel the circumstances were extraordinary.

Surely a measure that the circumstances are extraordinary is the fact that the relevant committee of Parliament has asked him to exercise these powers. He looks for signs, and in this case, leaving these things entirely to his sole discretion as opposed to giving oversight to that body of Parliament, which is the most senior body capable of meeting at this time, would be an incorrect way I think of dealing with extraordinary circumstances as they arise.

We are attempting to demonstrate that in the opinion of this body this is an extraordinary circumstance. I think that is a significant message to him. One hopes that he will be receptive to it. Thus I have some hope that it will have some efficacy.

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

[The Chair, Conservative, Gary Goodyear]

Thank you, colleagues.

Is there any further comment on this particular motion? I saw his hand first, so I will go to Mr. Dewar.

[Paul Dewar, NDP, Ottawa Centre, ON]

I simply want to clear up a point--and it is simple--to Mr. Reid and to anyone else on the other side. I know what the motion says. We also know what our role is here. We can't direct him to do this; we can suggest it. That's all I'm saying. So the efficacy is questionable. We heard his testimony about what he's going to do--point final.

[Pierre Poilievre, Conservative, Nepean—Carleton, ON]

To conclude on my motion, Mr. Chair, we of course are excited about getting onto the issue of electoral financing. We will do that, and we hope this time the opposition won't block those sorts of hearings from going ahead.

In concluding this today, this motion is put forward in the spirit of the Prime Minister's earlier remarks. The Prime Minister has made it clear that the existing law permits Elections Canada to require people to reveal their faces when they vote. That's what the Prime Minister said. He said that the existing law permits that to occur, and now we are voting on whether or not that is true.

My motion indicates that there are powers of adaptation. The Chief Electoral Officer admits that he has such powers, and we look forward to having members vote on the powers of adaptation and encourage the Chief Electoral Officer to use those powers in order to uphold the integrity of our electoral system.

I thank the members for their fair hearing and I look forward to their support for the motion.

[The Chair, Conservative, Gary Goodyear]

Thank you. Are we ready for the question?

[Scott Reid, Conservative, Lanark—Frontenac—Lennox and Addington, ON]

I have a point of order, Mr. Chairman. I would like this to be a recorded vote.

[The Chair, Conservative, Gary Goodyear]

Fair enough. We will record the vote. I will ask our clerk to read the motion and then we will call the question.

[James Latimer]

Mr. Poilievre moved:

That the Committee call on the Electoral Officer to use his powers of adaptation to require electors to show their faces before being permitted to vote at voting stations across the country.

[The Chair, Conservative, Gary Goodyear]

Could we have it read in French as well?

[James Latimer]

Yes, of course.

Mr. Poilievre moved the following:

That the committee call on the Chief Electoral Officer to use his powers of adaptation to require electors to show their faces before being permitted to vote at voting stations across the country.

[The Chair, Conservative, Gary Goodyear]

We will now take the vote on Mr. Poilievre's motion.

(Motion agreed to: yeas 11; nays 0)

Colleagues, the motion carries unanimously.