Evidence of meeting #9 for Procedure and House Affairs in the 39th Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was list.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Eric Hébert  Federal Secretary, New Democratic Party
Martin Carpentier  Director, Bloc Québécois
Gilbert Gardner  General Director, Bloc Québécois
Steven MacKinnon  National Director, Liberal Party of Canada
Michael D. Donison  Executive Director, Conservative Party of Canada
Paul Lepsoe  Legal Counsel, Conservative Fund of Canada, Conservative Party of Canada
Jess Turk-Browne  Assistant Federal Secretary, New Democratic Party

11:40 a.m.

Director, Bloc Québécois

Martin Carpentier

There are also list clerks in Quebec City too. There's a form that's distributed to the parties. They're called the “pale” forms, and the returning officer pays for them.

Another attempt was made in the context of municipal elections to computerize the lists. The problem arose with one of the companies that supplied the system. The advantage of that was that the political parties or candidates had received hourly computerized statements containing all the information as well as the names of the electors who had voted.

11:40 a.m.

General Director, Bloc Québécois

Gilbert Gardner

As regards access to public places, I think the act should absolutely guarantee candidates unlimited access to public places. That was corrected in the past with regard to signage, but there were obstacles. The act clarified that, and I think we have to proceed the same way as regards access.

11:40 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Gary Goodyear

Mr. Hébert.

11:40 a.m.

Federal Secretary, New Democratic Party

Eric Hébert

With respect to the role of deputy returning officers, it isn't just a matter of bingo cards. All the parties admit that we have to be able to verify voters' identities and to ensure that those voters indeed have to vote at that place. We don't want to eliminate deputy returning officers, but we're absolutely not opposed to the idea of having this kind of system.

As regards access to buildings and shopping centres, we agree, in the context of an election campaign, we should have access to the public in all possible places.

11:40 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Gary Goodyear

Thank you.

Your time is definitely up. I'm sorry. I'll add your name to the next round.

I want to thank our witnesses, because I felt you kept that very brief. I know we have a couple of extra people at the table, but could we have just one spokesperson from each party?

Mr. Reid is next, for eight minutes.

11:40 a.m.

Conservative

Scott Reid Conservative Lanark—Frontenac—Lennox and Addington, ON

Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

My first question is not really so much a question as a request for all the participants. We have the written presentation of Mr. Lepsoe and our representatives from the New Democratic Party, but not from the other two parties. I'm hopeful that if you have notes, you'd be willing to hand them to our clerk, who could arrange to have them translated and distributed. That would be very helpful for us.

One of the problems we have in this committee, and all committees, is that it takes a long time for the committee Hansard to get done and get back to us. They're a lower priority than the Hansard for the House. It can take a number of weeks; sometimes it doesn't happen until over the summer, and if we're trying to come to some kind of decision, it would be very helpful, rather than trying to go from our notes and from memory, to have your notes. If you could do that, I would be very grateful. I'm sure the other members of the committee would be as well.

Having made that pitch, I'd like to use the rest of my time to ask Mr. MacKinnon, who had a very interesting presentation for which he didn't estimate his time quite right, if he could continue where he left off.

11:45 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Gary Goodyear

That's exactly what we should do. Yes, please.

11:45 a.m.

National Director, Liberal Party of Canada

Steven MacKinnon

Thank you very much.

It's most appreciated. I apologize for underestimating the amount of time I had, or underestimating how long this would take.

I'll perhaps just pick it up where I left off, if you like, for the record, but I did give English and French versions of this to the clerk. I did not bring enough copies. It's not the clerk's fault. She gave it to the translators, and either we will supply them or she can retrieve them and get them to you.

We talked about the riding of Trinity—Spadina, in downtown Toronto. In that riding, deputy returning officers who tried to see what was going on with regard to the registration procedure realized that it was pointless since they had no right to do so.

Sections 143 and 144 of the act state that a deputy returning officer at a polling station has a right to ask an elector for his or her name and to require the person to show satisfactory proof of identity and residence. However, the legal department at Elections Canada has taken the liberty of stating firmly, once again, that these rights were non-existent at another registration desk, since, under subsection 161(3), deputy returning officers may be present on the premises; they have no right to say or require anything.

In fact, they were not even given the opportunity to see the pieces of identification of a potential elector who wanted to register or to ask questions concerning documents which clearly were inadequate and that they nevertheless perceived. And yet that was the case, even when it violated directives published by Elections Canada.

In essence, if someone registered to vote on the basis of a photocopy of a cable bill or with a magazine label, they were powerless to bring their disquiet to the attention of officials. Those who did were told they would be removed from the polling station.

At the University of Toronto, the university administration provided lists of the names of resident students to Elections Canada in advance of election day. A student on such a list only needed to provide proof of identity, not of residence, in order to register, yet our scrutineers were never, either before or on election day, permitted to see these lists--not to contact the potential voter, not to question whether the person still lived there, not to look into whether they might be citizens, and certainly not to investigate whether they had voted at an advance poll at their parents' residence.

We strongly recommend that the act be amended to provide for effective representation of candidates at all stages of the process, and in particular in all aspects of election day.

Next is targeted revision. Given the statistics Elections Canada likes to present as to how registration accuracy and comprehensiveness exceed goals, we continue to be surprised at the extent to which there are pockets throughout the country in which the registry is a poor reflection of reality. Whether this is due to high mobility rates or low interest is immaterial. The system is predicated upon the notion that we have adequate lists of voters in all areas. Not only do spending limits depend on this, but if you don't know who the voters are, it makes it rather awkward for political parties to locate them to communicate or to keep track of their voting intentions.

A detailed list is a thing of the past. In far too many places, not enough people open their doors, but a serious and precise review is essential; otherwise, there is too great a risk that the registration system in the country will be determined by political motivation to register voters, with parties trying to register voters in the proper manner provided they vote for their party. In the Canadian system, we need an approach that is both neutral, oriented toward the government and dynamic in order to make specific changes to the procedure for registering voters. An amendment to the present act could prove necessary in order to reinforce the idea that this need is part of Elections Canada's mandate.

Therefore we recommend targeted revision be increased.

In what little time I have left, I would like to touch briefly on some election finance issues. We could discuss many such issues at greater length with significant benefits, so we would welcome an opportunity for a further visit with you in the future, but here are three key concerns.

When an election is called, your supporters naturally want to start giving, but if they give to your campaign right at the beginning, they can't get a tax receipt. Those are not available for any donations received prior to the day Elections Canada accepts your nomination. In each election, some candidates and donors run into trouble over this.

The solution is exceptionally simple, as my colleagues have indicated. In Ontario, under the Election Finances Act, a candidate may pre-register for campaign purposes. In the absence of an election writ, this pre-registration has no legal meaning, but on the day the election is called, the candidate is registered for financial purposes and may start accepting receivable contributions. Amendments to both the Canada Elections Act and the Income Tax Act would be required to streamline the rather less rational federal status quo.

Second, as all of you know, your financial returns for the last election were due on May 23. What you may not know is what happens not only if you are late but if your return is missing even one single yet essential document, such as the auditor's checklist. Prior to May 23, if there was a problem that made it difficult for you to meet the deadline, you could simply request and routinely receive an extension from the Chief Electoral Officer, but after May 23 he lost that power.

There is now a two-week window following May 23 to get dispensation from a judge on a formal court application to permit a late filing. The legal costs of such applications run into the thousands of dollars. What's worse, though, is that the political costs are higher. The sitting member who is in default is legally prohibited from sitting or voting in the House of Commons. See subsection 463(2).

In one case after the 2004 election, a filing was late because a candidate's official agent had been diagnosed with cancer the day prior to the deadline. In another case, the auditor's report had been obtained and was inadvertently left out of the envelope.

We need strict deadlines, but clearly, reasonable extensions should be possible.

The last point I'd like to make, and I will conclude on it, is related to the point my friend from the Conservative Party made about the overall compliance burden on volunteers in local ridings. We think it is crazy. We think Bill C-24 did not contemplate the kind of work involved in complying with the act at the local level. As we all know, complying at the national level is hard enough.

We recommend that Elections Canada conduct a thorough review of the process with a view to cutting the red tape and lessening the burden on all of the volunteers, who could put their energies to better use in supporting our candidates in our respective parties.

Thank you very much. I appreciate the time granted to me by the member.

11:50 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Gary Goodyear

Thank you very much, Mr. MacKinnon, and thank you, Mr. Reid, for allowing this.

We will now go to Monsieur Guimond.

June 1st, 2006 / 11:50 a.m.

Bloc

Michel Guimond Bloc Montmorency—Charlevoix—Haute-Côte-Nord, QC

Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

I want to go back to the voter identification procedure. The members around the table have all campaigned and, like me, have had occasion to observe that, in election campaigns, when we enter residential buildings, multiple-unit dwellings, at the entrance, where the mail boxes are, we see a series of voter information cards in the blue recycling bin or else outside scattered across the lawn. In the 2004 election, I brought back approximately 150 to the office of the returning officer. You know that's the preferred method for identifying voters.

First, I'd like to hear from the Bloc québécois representative, then from those of the other parties. I began making my colleagues around the table aware of the need to improve the Elections Act in this regard, and I sense that progress has been made. I refer you to what is in effect in Quebec. The Quebec system doesn't have the reputation of working poorly. No one has questioned the democratic principle of elections and referendums in Quebec. I refer you to section 337 of Quebec's Election Act, which states:

Each elector shall declare, to the deputy returning officer and the poll clerk, his name and address and, when so required, his date of birth.

I can say that I'm Bill Clinton and give a date of birth and an address. Perhaps I'm suffering from a split personality, and I'm inwardly convinced that I am Bill Clinton. That's why the act provides that the elector shall state certain information and also provides:

In addition, each elector shall produce as identification [...]

It then lists various documents that may be used to establish one's identity in Quebec: the health insurance card issued by the Régie de l'assurance maladie du Québec, driver's licence issued by the Société de l'assurance automobile du Québec, Canadian passport issued by the Department of Foreign Affairs Canada or any other document that has been issued by the government and is determined by regulation of the government, where there is another identification document that may be appropriate.

I would therefore like the representatives of each party to give us their opinion. Would it be a good idea to have the equivalent of that or something similar in the federal act? Of course, things are progressing. Among other things, there is the fact that we have the date of birth on the electoral lists. I don't know whether that's attributable to the change of government—I don't want to incense the Conservatives—but that kind of information is very useful. For example, in Lac-Saint-Jean, there may be 112 persons with the name of Marcel Tremblay. One was born in 1922, and the person before us seems to be 24, unless he's had access to the fountain of youth and has stayed young...

I'd like to have your comments on voter identification.

11:55 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Gary Goodyear

The Bloc, please. Mr. Gardner.

11:55 a.m.

General Director, Bloc Québécois

Gilbert Gardner

We entirely agree on the idea of drawing on the section from the Quebec Election Act. I don't think that's excessive. It doesn't delay the conduct of the vote. On the contrary, Quebec's voter turnout rates are generally higher than those of Canada. In addition, the polling stations are open for virtually the same number of hours.

So it doesn't delay the conduct of the vote and is not excessive, but it makes it possible to ensure that the person who is before the deputy returning officer or the clerk is the right person and that that person can democratically exercise his or her right to vote. That is definitely desirable.

As for the date of birth, I want to point out to you that this isn't yet a reality. In any case, it's no longer in the act. There now appears to be a greater openness in this regard, but there has to be a legislative amendment so that the political parties can get a hold of dates of birth.

11:55 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Gary Goodyear

Thank you. Would the NDP like to comment briefly?

11:55 a.m.

Federal Secretary, New Democratic Party

Eric Hébert

Definitely.

It would be useful to have proof of identity. I'm not sure about the kind of proof that should be requested or the scope that should be attached to this requirement. Some people don't have the necessary pieces of identification. In some cases, they may provide only a Hydro-Quebec bill or something similar. It is possible to apply a system, but I would like us not to get to the point where we prevent people from voting, all the more so people who have just moved, because they don't have any pieces of identification.

11:55 a.m.

Bloc

Michel Guimond Bloc Montmorency—Charlevoix—Haute-Côte-Nord, QC

I can answer that.

In Quebec, a table is set up for checks of that kind. A voter who has none of the required documents is directed to a table where he is checked. There is an oath-taking procedure.

So it is ultimately provided that the elector can exercise his right to vote. However, I believe that no one wants to see a voter use 34 votes, as has previously occurred.

11:55 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Gary Goodyear

Mr. MacKinnon, would you like to respond?

11:55 a.m.

National Director, Liberal Party of Canada

Steven MacKinnon

I entirely agree. I find it completely reasonable that voters should be asked to submit a more or less official document, preferably with a photo, which proves their identity and place of residence.

In the riding I mentioned earlier, there were magazines containing addresses. There is an endless number of examples. I hesitate to use the word “fraud”, but when you hear about 12,000 persons on the very day of the election, it's no minor matter. Moreover, we filed a complaint on the matter with the Commissioner of Elections.

I think the idea of adopting the Quebec system at the federal level is desirable. I have known the system and I find it reasonable. It's not inappropriate to ask voters who come to exercise their democratic right to vote to provide pieces of identification or documents that moreover are used everywhere.

11:55 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Gary Goodyear

Mr. Donison, do you have a final word?

11:55 a.m.

Legal Counsel, Conservative Fund of Canada, Conservative Party of Canada

Paul Lepsoe

I'll answer.

I'm not sure we should go that far. I don't believe that the date of birth is the entire solution. However, I agree with Mr. MacKinnon: we should at least specify the right of candidates' representatives to ask questions. Perhaps we should also determine which pieces of identification would be considered acceptable by returning officers.

Noon

Bloc

Michel Guimond Bloc Montmorency—Charlevoix—Haute-Côte-Nord, QC

Don't resort to double talk, Mr. Lepsoe.

Mr. MacKinnon said he agreed with the idea of requiring proof of identity. A list of the documents in question could be drawn up, but, for the moment, I'd like to know whether you agree on the principle. It isn't just a matter of the deputy returning officer's right to ask questions. That's not what I was talking about.

Noon

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Gary Goodyear

Order, please. I'm sorry, the time has already run out. I would like to allow the witness to respond.

Noon

Legal Counsel, Conservative Fund of Canada, Conservative Party of Canada

Paul Lepsoe

Mr. MacKinnon was talking about clarifying the right of candidates' representatives. That's what I said.

Noon

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Gary Goodyear

Thank you.

Ms. McDonough, please.

Noon

NDP

Alexa McDonough NDP Halifax, NS

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.

I assume that at the end of the day this committee is going to be trying to find some reasonable consensus around some of these issues. I regret that I was not here at the very beginning, but I wonder if I might ask each of the witnesses to address the three recommendations that were brought forward by the New Democratic Party representative that have financial implications, the first being the recommendation that membership fees be tax receiptable in the same way that contributions are, so that you don't penalize those who are least able to afford to make larger contributions.

Secondly, with respect to the transferring of debts, I'm wondering whether there is agreement in the same way that a candidate can transfer their surplus to their electoral district association, that they should have the opportunity to do so with respect to debts, which seems to eliminate the need for a campaign account being kept open for considerable periods of time.

Thirdly, with respect to leadership contestant spending limits, I know this is an issue that doesn't arise directly out of the most recent election, but it does arise I think as a serious concern a lot of people have about whether in fact or in perception, because of the lack of any real limits on leadership contestant spending, there can be the sense that a candidate has actually bought their way into the leadership, and the absence of accountability around that.

Could the witnesses indicate whether they agree or have a different point of view on those three recommendations?

Noon

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Gary Goodyear

Thank you. We'll move to the panel now.

There are three points, if you can keep it as short as you can, please.

The Conservative Party of Canada first.