Evidence of meeting #13 for Procedure and House Affairs in the 39th Parliament, 2nd Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was point.

A recording is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Clerk of the Committee  Mr. James M. Latimer

11:35 a.m.

Conservative

Tom Lukiwski Conservative Regina—Lumsden—Lake Centre, SK

Thank you, Chair.

Again, I repeat the fact that the examination of the Conservatives' election campaign in 2006 could be engaged immediately if there were only acceptance by the members opposite to allow an examination of their own books and their own advertising practices. I will once again repeat that this is not an attempt in any way, shape, or form to embarrass any one of those other parties--none. It is merely an attempt to demonstrate that all parties have engaged in the same practices, which are completely legal.

That's why we have a court case too, Monsieur Proulx. That's why we brought a court challenge against the ruling, and I will demonstrate--

11:35 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Gary Goodyear

Order, please.

Colleagues, I believe we're starting to lose decorum, and I don't want to adjourn this meeting for that reason, so I will caution members one more time. Please speak to the chair. I have recognized everybody, and I will continue to do that, but please speak to the chair. Let's keep this civil.

Mr. Lukiwski, please.

11:35 a.m.

Conservative

Tom Lukiwski Conservative Regina—Lumsden—Lake Centre, SK

Thank you, Mr. Chair. I should know better not to engage in any baiting by the member opposite and I should continue to speak directly through the chair, and I will attempt to do so in the future.

But it merely underscores what I've been saying all along, that I do not believe that any party in this Parliament has done anything wrong, because we have all engaged in the same regional ad buys, with varying degrees of methodology. I will certainly demonstrate in a few moments why I'd make that contention. To that end, I would suggest there is absolutely nothing to fear from the opposition parties to have a full examination and a full study of the practices of all parties.

In fact, Mr. Chair, as I was mentioning earlier, the only motivation I can see from the opposition members not to agree to this motion and to argue against it continuously is that they do not have a real desire to try to get to the bottom of this, merely to only have one party being studied, and that's for their own political purposes. It probably wouldn't, in their view at least, have the same cachet if all four parties were being examined. So they only want the headlines to say the study of Conservative election practices is taking place. In fact, Mr. Chair, we have filed an affidavit in Federal Court and presented our case, our factual case, and we will be arguing that case in front of a judge, and I would argue that this will be a more thorough examination of what we did in the 2006 election than this committee could ever hope to find on its own.

As a point of reference, I go back to the Mulroney-Schreiber inquiry now being conducted by the ethics committee. Even members of the opposition, whether it be a member of the committee proper or the chair, have at times stated that in their opinion a full public inquiry will actually get more information as to what happened than their own efforts. Similarly, I would argue that the court action we have taken will more fully disclose everything that we did. All of our advertising practices will come under examination in this court case far more fully than any examination, I would suggest, that this committee could possibly hope for.

So if they truly want to find out, or if they are truly concerned, about whether or not the Conservative party broke any rules in terms of our advertising in the 2006 election, that will be determined in a court of law. That will be a far more thorough investigation of the practices in which we engaged than anything by this committee.

11:40 a.m.

Liberal

Marcel Proulx Liberal Hull—Aylmer, QC

That's your opinion.

11:40 a.m.

Conservative

Tom Lukiwski Conservative Regina—Lumsden—Lake Centre, SK

Mr. Chair, again I notice that Mr. Proulx is trying to make comments directly to me rather than through the chair. But I would say to you, Chair--

11:40 a.m.

Liberal

Marcel Proulx Liberal Hull—Aylmer, QC

It's his comments also.

11:40 a.m.

Conservative

Tom Lukiwski Conservative Regina—Lumsden—Lake Centre, SK

I would say to you, Mr. Chair, as opposed to saying to Mr. Proulx, that this examination in Federal Court, I would suggest, is going to be far more thorough than any examination here. That's why we have courts in this land.

11:40 a.m.

Bloc

Michel Guimond Bloc Montmorency—Charlevoix—Haute-Côte-Nord, QC

Two partisan chairs.

11:40 a.m.

Conservative

Tom Lukiwski Conservative Regina—Lumsden—Lake Centre, SK

Mr. Chair, again--

11:40 a.m.

Conservative

Scott Reid Conservative Lanark—Frontenac—Lennox and Addington, ON

On a point of order, Mr. Chair--

11:40 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Gary Goodyear

A point of order, Mr. Reid.

11:40 a.m.

Conservative

Scott Reid Conservative Lanark—Frontenac—Lennox and Addington, ON

I apologize. It is just that I keep on hearing Mr. Lukiwski being interrupted by other members of the committee who have various comments, and it's a little hard to concentrate. I hope they could be a little quiet.

11:40 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Gary Goodyear

Thank you, and my apologies to the committee for not jumping on this. I thought I had made it clear a few moments ago that we did need some order and that comments would be made through the chair. If the interruptions continue, we will have to make some other decisions.

Mr. Lukiwski, please.

11:40 a.m.

Conservative

Tom Lukiwski Conservative Regina—Lumsden—Lake Centre, SK

Thank you, Chair.

I was trying to say, Chair, that the advertising the Conservative Party engaged in during the 2006 election will be examined thoroughly in Federal Court. How could anyone say we were trying to hide what we did? How can they possibly say that when we filed an affidavit, which is open for examination by any of the parties? Frankly I would be very surprised, Chair, if the members opposite and their parties don't have a copy of this affidavit. It's open for public examination. They can take a look at exactly what we did. That affidavit shows many examples of the practices that were engaged in by members opposite. Members of this very committee are named in this affidavit.

Once again, it doesn't suggest for a moment that any member of this committee or any member of their respective parties did anything wrong--far from it. We are saying they complied fully with electoral law. And since they did exactly as we did and they were not challenged, Chair, then we argue, as one of our many arguments, that we did nothing wrong. How could it be that two candidates, for example, did exactly the same thing in terms of reporting their advertising and engaging in a regional ad buy? If two candidates do exactly the same thing, how can one be in contravention of the law and the other not? Common sense alone dictates that could not happen. Yet that's the conundrum we find ourselves in.

That is one of the reasons, Chair, that we chose to argue our case in court. Chair, if that isn't being open, I don't know what is. All of our books are going to be made available for examination by a judge. In fact, all of our arguments can be examined by members opposite, by respective officials within their own parties, by members of the general public. We are not hiding anything. Yet it appears, by the opposition's continual opposition and rejection of my motion, that they do have something to hide. I don't know what it could be.

11:45 a.m.

Bloc

Réal Ménard Bloc Hochelaga, QC

On a point of order, Mr. Chairman.

11:45 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Gary Goodyear

Excuse me, Mr. Lukiwski.

Mr. Ménard, you have a point of order.

11:45 a.m.

Bloc

Réal Ménard Bloc Hochelaga, QC

I would ask you to be vigilant and to ensure that government colleagues do not impute objectionable motives to opposition members who have nothing to hide. They are not the ones at odds with the Chief Electoral Officer or the ones who acted unethically. So then, I ask you to call to order this member who is being disrespectful toward the opposition.

11:45 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Gary Goodyear

That is a good debate point, but it's not a point of order.

11:45 a.m.

Bloc

Réal Ménard Bloc Hochelaga, QC

Don't hurt me.

11:45 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Gary Goodyear

Excuse me. Mr. Ménard, I have asked you not to interrupt this meeting again. That is the last warning.

Thank you.

Mr. Lukiwski.

11:45 a.m.

Bloc

Réal Ménard Bloc Hochelaga, QC

I'm very sensitive.

11:45 a.m.

An hon. member

I like you. I like you a lot. I think you're a great guy.

11:45 a.m.

Liberal

Marcel Proulx Liberal Hull—Aylmer, QC

I have a point of order, Mr. Chair. If you're going to ask us to keep order, maybe you should ask the other side to keep order also. Will you do it, please?

Mr. Chair, you're being partisan, I am afraid.

11:45 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Gary Goodyear

Monsieur Proulx, I heard your comment. There have been enough comments going around this room. I'm trying to get some leeway here. The comment was a friendly comment. I expect we will have the odd one the odd time to lighten the mood in this room.

Mr. Lukiwski, you have the floor.

11:45 a.m.

Liberal

Marcel Proulx Liberal Hull—Aylmer, QC

All our comments have been friendly, Mr. Chair.