Procedure and House Affairs Committee on Nov. 20th, 2007

[Rev. Lillian Roberts]

The problem with Sunday is that they cannot have enough physical space available until they conclude their Sunday morning activities, so they cannot accommodate the space needed for the polls to happen within the church. It is a problem.

[The Chair, Conservative, Gary Goodyear]

Ms. Robillard, I am sorry to interrupt you.

We're out of time, but I will allow Mr. Cryer a short answer, please.

[Doug Cryer]

It gets to the heart of the issue we're concerned about, that there are already activities happening on Sundays that are recognized nationally in Canada, and that this is a day of worship for Christians. For Christians to accommodate a new activity on their day is a major accommodation on our part, which is why we would recommend that we not have full advance pollings on the Sunday before an election.

[The Chair, Conservative, Gary Goodyear]

Thank you very much.

Mr. Reid, please, seven minutes.

[Scott Reid, Conservative, Lanark—Frontenac—Lennox and Addington, ON]

Thank you.

I don't anticipate using all seven minutes, Mr. Chairman. Would it be acceptable to you and to the committee if, in the event that I end early, we go to Mr. Lukiwski to finish off the time slot?

[The Chair, Conservative, Gary Goodyear]

Is everybody in agreement?

That's what we can do. We can share your time.

[Scott Reid, Conservative, Lanark—Frontenac—Lennox and Addington, ON]

Thank you.

Thank you to our witnesses for coming here.

I have two things I want to do. One is to make a comment of what I would consider a gentle disagreement, in particular with what Mr. McDonald and Mr. Cryer said, and then to turn to a specific question.

It seems to me that there is a fundamental distinction between voting and work for a Christian. If you are an Orthodox Jew the definition of work and what you ought not to do on Shabbat is quite specific. On the Sabbath you can't, for example, use a writing instrument and mark a ballot, but that's not true in the same way for a Christian.

On drawing on my own experience, I remember talking at one point with the former Swiss ambassador to Canada, and he was describing to me his experience as a child growing up in Switzerland. Of course they have elections and referendums on a very frequent basis, several times a year, and he told me, Sunday was the day we went to church and then went to vote. At least in their culture—and he came from a Protestant canton in northern Switzerland—they didn't perceive these as being a work activity, an intrusion on the Sabbath. I just mentioned that to say that there are other countries where they've managed to find a balance.

The question I had is of a very specific nature, and it relates to the small and usually starting congregations, often very lively congregations. I've been to many of them that have met in places like a meeting room in a hotel, and school gymnasiums and auditoriums are popular. I've never really thought until now about the arrangements they as lessees make with the lessors, and I understand the fear of losing that particular space on a particular Sunday, but I'm inclined to think that they would be making a multi-Sunday agreement. They wouldn't walk in each time not knowing what they'll be doing one, two, three, or perhaps even ten or twenty Sundays in advance. It would just be a logical thing to work that out with the institution that's renting to them.

Am I wrong in that assumption? I'm assuming that Elections Canada would simply find those facilities unavailable, and in fact the relevant congregation would in fact have locked up that particular room. But I stand to be corrected.

[Jamey McDonald]

In many of our cases something like Elections Canada would trump the church service, and we have occasions where congregations are told the facility is not available next week because when we share with another church, it's a case of our church needing it, so you're out. I would imagine, but I can't speak absolutely, Mr. Reid, that Elections Canada would trump a church service in the minds of many places--schools, community halls.

[Scott Reid, Conservative, Lanark—Frontenac—Lennox and Addington, ON]

Is there actually something in the legislation that allows Elections Canada to do that?

[Jamey McDonald]

Good question, but I don't know the answer.

[Doug Cryer]

I actually checked it out with Elections Canada. It's up to the returning officer in each riding to determine the polling locations in that riding, and it's done on a negotiated basis.

I can tell you anecdotally that any regularly scheduled activity is often pre-empted by a polling station, whether churches, aerobics, or scouting. Whatever the regularly scheduled activity, it's often pre-empted for the polling station. I'm telling you that anecdotally because I've heard numerous instances of that happening. I don't have statistics for it, but it seems to be a common enough experience that other activities are set aside for election day.

[Scott Reid, Conservative, Lanark—Frontenac—Lennox and Addington, ON]

It sounds to me that, at the very least, there's a need to ensure that this sort of thing is prevented from occurring. I can certainly see how it would be an intrusion if a congregation were to find themselves bumped out of a facility.

Thank you very much.

[The Chair, Conservative, Gary Goodyear]

Mr. Lukiwski, do you want to share time? You have three minutes.

[Tom Lukiwski, Conservative, Regina—Lumsden—Lake Centre, SK]

Thank you, Chair.

And thank you all for coming before us this morning.

I have a couple of quick questions.

Mr. McDonald, you mentioned in your presentation that approximately 30% of Canadians on Sundays express their desire to attend a service of their choosing, which obviously means that 70% of Canadians do not. On this intrusiveness of which you speak, that may be an inconvenience or an intrusion upon a religious day for 30% of Canadians, there is always a balance. That's what I'm trying to get at. There's a balance between what we're trying to do in this bill, which is to increase voter turnout across Canada, to increase the level of engagement with citizens in the voting process, but there is always a balance against whether we are intruding upon religious services or the religious beliefs of individuals.

Personally, I can tell you that during election campaigns I don't do any direct campaigning on Sundays, no phone calls, no door knocking, nothing. I do that out of respect, quite frankly, because I consider it to be a day of rest.

However, do you not also believe that individuals have the freedom of choice to determine themselves whether or not Sunday would be an appropriate day for them to cast their ballots? I have many people in my riding who have told me, similar to what Mr. Reid was saying in citing the Swiss example, that Sunday tends to be the best day for them, because number one, it's a family day. If they have voting-aged children, they encourage them to participate in the voting process, and many of them have told me that after their church services, regardless of what denomination, they make it a point, as a family activity, to go and vote.

I wonder what you have heard, or what comments you have. It seems to me that it's a matter of freedom of choice for individuals. If they choose not to participate on a Sunday, they do not have to, but those families who find it more convenient and view it as a family activity actually prefer the Sunday option.

I'd like to get a few comments from all of you, if I could, starting with you, Mr. McDonald.

[Jamey McDonald]

You raise a very good point. There is freedom of choice. But even in choices, we often have our choices chosen for us. You determine what hours the polls are open. You determine what days they're open. So there are already choices made before we get to make our choice. I'm simply trying to contribute to the discussion of what days we will choose for people to vote on, and I'm saying I'm not convinced that Sunday is a good day to include as a day of choice, since there are six other days of the week and 148 other hours of the week to vote.

I hear your point and I think there is some basis for saying that in other cultures and other countries there is a history of Sunday voting, but heretofore it has not been a Canadian tradition. In fact, you alluded to the fact that the Canada Elections Act requires that you remain silent for a day before the election, if I understand the law process, so I'm thinking, is this not a good thing to have a day of pause even between the campaign and the actual election day?

[The Chair, Conservative, Gary Goodyear]

We are over time, but I'm going to allow short answers from the witnesses. But members might want to consider the time factor when they ask their question.

Mr. Cryer, please.

[Doug Cryer]

We have freedom of choice right now without this legislation, so we'll have freedom of choice if this bill is passed. But it is more than that; it's intrusion into regularly scheduled activities that is also of concern. Right now we have freedom of choice to go shopping on Sunday, but if your church building is going to be used by Elections Canada, then your choice is limited and you have to make other choices based on what somebody else has given to you.

Also, don't forget about the get-out-the-vote activities. Political parties will use Sunday as an activity to phone their supporters, e-mail them, door knock, and do everything they can to get the vote out on a Sunday when people seem to be at home, so our concern is that this will become a full get-out-the-vote activity. In that case we'll have the freedom not to answer the phone, but it might be ringing an awful lot.

[The Chair, Conservative, Gary Goodyear]

Reverend Roberts, would you like to make a short comment, please?

[Rev. Lillian Roberts]

In terms of the United Church context, many of our members would indeed choose to vote on a Sunday. That's not the issue I am trying to raise. It's more about use of buildings.

[The Chair, Conservative, Gary Goodyear]

Thank you.

Monsieur Paquette, for seven minutes, please.

[Pierre Paquette, Bloc, Joliette, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I would like to thank you for your highly interesting presentations. I admit that I was at first surprised to see that churches were slated to participate in this consultative process. I find your contribution very enriching as far as information gathering is concerned.

The bill under consideration creates a new form of advanced polling. As several of you have mentioned, conventional advanced polling includes polling stations that can be set up more or less anywhere, but there would be no obligation to find a large number of polling stations. I think that at the last meeting, there was mention of 60,000 polling stations. If an additional conventional advanced polling day would be added, the problem would not be as bad as you have made out, because there would perhaps be no need for polling stations in places of worship.

Moreover, you have raised the issue of Sunday worship which may be disrupted, regardless of where the polling stations are located, simply because people would be encouraged to vote on a Sunday.

I would like to come back to the location issue. Could you instruct the people in charge of administering your places of worship to refuse to rent space to Elections Canada, whether be a church, a temple, or a mosque? When Elections Canada asks you to rent out space, as churches, could you instruct your administrators, for want of a better word, to refuse to rent out your premises, or does the law compel you to do so?

Could the various churches you represent refuse to rent out their premises on the Sunday prior to an election because doing so would otherwise cause too much inconvenience?

[Jamey McDonald]

Thank you, my friend.

In the Baptist tradition, we would not rent to Elections Canada at all. That's not our tradition. But the issue for us is that some of our churches are using public facilities that would be disenfranchised by somebody else's decision.

[Pierre Paquette, Bloc, Joliette, QC]

So it's not just a matter of places of worship, but also of the premises you need to conduct the activities associated with worship.

[Jamey McDonald]

Exactly.

[Pierre Paquette, Bloc, Joliette, QC]

Could your churches instruct their administrators—I don't know what to call them exactly—to refuse to rent out premises to Elections Canada? Having said that, we're talking about 2,000 locations.