Evidence of meeting #22 for Procedure and House Affairs in the 40th Parliament, 2nd Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was study.

A recording is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Marc Mayrand  Chief Electoral Officer of Canada

11:05 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Joe Preston

I call the meeting to order.

Today we are meeting in public. Pursuant to Standing Order 108(3)(a), we are discussing matters relating to the draft regulations adapting the Canada Elections Act for the purposes of a referendum.

Monsieur Mayrand, it's great to have you here two meetings in a row. It's always hard to get you, so when we can have you for two meetings in a row, it must be urgent for us to look at this for you. We will give you a few moments for opening comments and to introduce the people who are with you, and then I'm sure members of the committee will have some questions as to what steps you'd like us to take next.

The floor is yours.

11:05 a.m.

Marc Mayrand Chief Electoral Officer of Canada

Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

I'm pleased to appear before the committee again today to discuss the proposed referendum regulation and, more generally, the federal referendum system.

With me today are Mr. Stéphane Perrault, senior general counsel, and Mr. Jean-François Morin, counsel with our legal services.

Before dealing with the draft referendum regulation, I'd like to take a brief look at the referendum system as a whole. The current Referendum Act was adopted in 1992. Basically, it provides a mechanism for consultation on questions relating to the Constitution of Canada outside an electoral period. This act sets out rules that specifically govern the holding of a referendum. For example, it specifies the manner in which the referendum question is approved and the sequence of events that must take place before the referendum is called and held. It also sets out the rules for registration and funding of referendum committees and defines offences and penalties specific to a referendum.

But the Referendum Act defers to the Canada Elections Act for many of the more general aspects of a referendum, and assigns to the Chief Electoral Officer the task of adapting, by means of regulation, the relevant provisions of the Canada Elections Act. To guide the Chief Electoral Officer in this task the Referendum Act includes, in schedule II, a list of Elections Act provisions that do not apply to referenda. The draft referendum regulation that I submitted to Parliament on June 12, 2009, is the product of this adaptation exercise.

I would now like to draw your attention to certain issues that emerged as my office worked to update the referendum regulation. The first issue is the lack of synchronization between the statutes. There are many references in the Referendum Act, particularly in schedule II, to provisions of the former Canada Elections Act as it existed before the legislative reforms enacted in the year 2000.

The Referendum Act has never been the subject of a thorough review. Consequently, the referendum system has not kept pace with the legislative evolution of the electoral system, the result being that the two systems have become desynchronized, even though they should be complementary. It is therefore very difficult, even for the well-informed reader, to fully grasp which provisions of the Canada Elections Act are applicable in the context of a referendum and which are not. This is an important issue, since it undermines the clarity and precision that must characterize any legislative system.

There are other technical difficulties that could impede the effective administration of a referendum. For example, the Referendum Act precludes returning officers from appointing deputy returning officers and poll clerks who have not been recommended by the parties. This situation stems from a series of amendments made in 1996 to the Referendum Act and its schedule II when the Canada Elections Act was amended to establish the national register of electors. This could clearly become problematic, given the declining number of election workers recommended by the parties. As I mentioned in an earlier report, barely 33% of the workers are currently recommended by parties. If the act is not amended by the time a future referendum is held, I will work with the parties to find an appropriate solution.

ln a briefing note accompanying the draft regulation, I informed Parliament of two concerns relating to management of the lists of electors.

The first has to do with the transmittal of the revised and official lists to the deputy returning officers for the conduct of the vote. The second has to do with privacy risks as a result of the wide distribution of certain preliminary lists of electors to registered referendum committees. I would remind you that the adaptation for a referendum of subsection 93(1.1) of the Canada Elections Act would require me to provide an electronic copy of the preliminary lists of electors for all the electoral districts in the country or provinces where the referendum is held to each referendum committee that requests it.

For both of these concerns, there are solutions that involve legislative interpretation. With regard to the transmittal of the lists to the deputy returning officers, it should be remembered that schedule II of the Referendum Act, in its current form, precludes the returning officer from providing the deputy returning officer with the list of electors necessary to conduct the vote. However, another provision of the referendum regulation that sets out the list of election materials that must be provided to the DROs mentions that the returning officer is to provide the deputy with the list of electors. The list necessary for the conduct of the vote could thus be provided to the deputy returning officer under this incidental provision. This is not an ideal solution, but it would nevertheless resolve the problem.

As for the privacy risks, we plan to minimize them through stricter interpretation of subsection (10)(1) and schedule II of the Referendum Act. In 1992, preliminary lists of electors were provided about ten days before polling day. Today these lists correspond to the revised lists of electors. I will therefore be amending the draft referendum regulation so that it excludes all provisions providing for the distribution of preliminary lists to registered referendum committees, including subsection 93(1.1)

During my last appearance before this committee, I mentioned that the Director of Public Prosecutions Act does not expressly confer on the DPP the authority to launch prosecutions under the Referendum Act, contrary to what is the case for prosecutions under the Canada Elections Act. Parliament should explore a solution to this matter as the uncertainty regarding his authority could compromise the capacity to mount prosecutions in connection with a referendum.

The points I have brought up are of a mostly technical nature and could be resolved as part of a legislative review of the Referendum Act. Should you request it, I would be pleased to provide you with recommendations in this regard.

I will now address three aspects of the referendum system that raise policy questions.

The first concerns the funding of referendum committees. The controls provided for under the Referendum Act are comparable to those involving third parties during an election. In broad terms, any referendum committee must register if its expenses reach a set amount; its expenses limit depends on the number of electors in the districts where it will be active; it must appoint an agent and an auditor; and it must submit a financial return.

The federal system also allows the establishment of any number of committees to be created during a referendum campaign whether they are in favour or against the question that is the subject of the consultation. Each committee has its own expense limit.

This system has undergone no major alterations since 1992. It sets no limits for contributions and allows contributions from corporations and unions.

My authority to adapt election rules for the purposes of a referendum do not allow me to fundamentally review this system and bring into it the political financing rules applicable to elections. However, Parliament could choose to adopt such measures, as part of a legislative review.

A second policy aspect concerns the penalties for offences during a referendum. All these penalties are set out in the Referendum Act. However, they have not changed since 1992, unlike those for election offences, which were thoroughly revised in 2000. For this reason, different penalties apply to similar offences, depending on whether the offence was committed during an election or a referendum. This is another example of the lack of synchronization between the Referendum Act and the Canada Elections Act.

The third aspect involves inmate voting, a question I raised in my presentation on October 8. Under the current legislative framework, inmates serving sentences of two years or more are not eligible to vote in a referendum. This inconsistency is the result of two decisions by the Supreme Court of Canada: in Sauvé (2002), where the Court ruled it was unconstitutional to prevent these inmates from voting under the Canada Elections Act, and in Haig (1993), where the Court ruled that the constitutional right to vote in an election does not extend to referendums.

The three aspects I have just touched on raise policy questions that are not for me to address.

Adapting the Canada Elections Act for the purposes of a referendum is basically a technical exercise. As you can see, such an exercise is not sufficient to solve most of the issues I have described today.

That is why I believe that it would be desirable for Parliament to consider a legislative review. Such a review could be confined to resolving the technical difficulties arising from the age of the Referendum Act. If so, I would be pleased to provide the committee with my recommendations.

But the committee might want to undertake a broader review of the act and address policy issues such as those that I described or others that the committee identifies. It is not for me to voice an opinion on this subject, but if that is what the committee would prefer, it would be more useful for me to set aside my technical recommendations for a later stage of the review process.

Mr. Chairman, this concludes my presentation. Thank you for the opportunity to discuss this subject with the committee. My colleagues and I will be happy to answer your questions, and please be assured that we will take your remarks into consideration in the proposed regulations before finalizing them.

Thank you.

11:15 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Joe Preston

Thank you very much.

We'll go to questioning of the witnesses.

Is there anyone from the official opposition who would like to lead the questioning today?

Monsieur Proulx.

11:15 a.m.

Liberal

Marcel Proulx Liberal Hull—Aylmer, QC

Good morning, Messrs. Mayrand, Perrault and Morin.

The Canada Elections Act has been amended a number of times since the regulations were amended in 2001. Can you tell me why the amendments to the Referendum Act were not done at the same time or in parallel?

11:15 a.m.

Chief Electoral Officer of Canada

Marc Mayrand

There may be a deficiency in that respect. The Canada Elections Act is amended regularly, without regard to the impact that can have on the Referendum Act. Perhaps we should take this into account as soon as there is an amendment to the Elections Act. There have been legislative reforms since 2001: a significant one in 2004 and, during the last Parliament, at least three bills with an impact on referendum regulations. As a result of the many elections, by-elections and electoral events, we were unable to propose an update to the regulations before now.

11:15 a.m.

Liberal

Marcel Proulx Liberal Hull—Aylmer, QC

In your view, how should the committee proceed with an update, a modernization? Do you think it should conduct a clause-by-clause review and then see how that matches up with our recommendations—perhaps I should say your options—or do you think instead that you should make recommendations to the committee so that it can examine them?

11:15 a.m.

Chief Electoral Officer of Canada

Marc Mayrand

We can definitely submit recommendations to the committee on technical changes designed to make the act operational.

As for the policy questions that I mentioned in my presentation, it is up to the committee to identify them. There are no doubt some that I haven't mentioned. The idea would be to determine the issues raised and whether it's appropriate to review those policies.

11:15 a.m.

Liberal

Marcel Proulx Liberal Hull—Aylmer, QC

If the committee asked you to prepare a list of the various technical recommendations, could you do that quite quickly, with your team?

11:15 a.m.

Chief Electoral Officer of Canada

11:15 a.m.

Liberal

Marcel Proulx Liberal Hull—Aylmer, QC

Thank you.

11:15 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Joe Preston

Mr. Proulx has not used all of his time.

Mr. Cuzner.

11:15 a.m.

Liberal

Rodger Cuzner Liberal Cape Breton—Canso, NS

You said that in 1992 the preliminary lists of electors were provided ten days before polling day, and today these lists correspond to the revised lists of electors. So are you advocating that the lists not be distributed prior to a referendum?

11:20 a.m.

Chief Electoral Officer of Canada

Marc Mayrand

The lists will be distributed, but they will be the revised lists, as opposed to the preliminary lists. Again, concerns out there are mostly about privacy. In the last referendum in 1992 there were 241 committees. Each of those committees had access to those lists of electors.

What we're suggesting in the regulation is that only the revised lists be distributed to committees, and only for the ridings in which they intend to operate. When they register they must indicate for which ridings they will operate. That will give them the tools they need to reach electors, but it will not give them more than is actually needed.

11:20 a.m.

Liberal

Rodger Cuzner Liberal Cape Breton—Canso, NS

Yes, because in 1992 they received all the lists.

11:20 a.m.

Chief Electoral Officer of Canada

11:20 a.m.

Liberal

Rodger Cuzner Liberal Cape Breton—Canso, NS

Okay. Thank you.

11:20 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Joe Preston

Mr. Lukiwski.

11:20 a.m.

Conservative

Tom Lukiwski Conservative Regina—Lumsden—Lake Centre, SK

Thank you, Chair.

Thank you, Monsieur Mayrand, for appearing here again.

I have a couple of comments first, and then I guess I'll ask for a response from you.

My personal opinion is that we need to do a study at this committee, a legislative review. With no disrespect to the drafters of the original act, I think there are a number of areas that need some serious review and revision. For example, from a policy standpoint, right now, if I understand correctly, if there were to be a referendum, you could not, because of the legislation, hold a referendum at the same time as a general election. Is that correct?

11:20 a.m.

Chief Electoral Officer of Canada

11:20 a.m.

Conservative

Tom Lukiwski Conservative Regina—Lumsden—Lake Centre, SK

To me, that makes no sense whatsoever.

In terms of cost efficiency, for example, it would just make sense. I know other provincial governments have done that recently: Ontario and British Columbia. As an example, that's one policy change that I think is kind of obvious. I don't know why it wasn't included in the first drafting.

Also, if I understand correctly, the way the act is structured now, parliamentarians can only make recommendations. Is that correct? We can't actually make policy or legislative changes to it. Your broad powers are such that you're the only body that is allowed to actually make changes to the act. Is that correct?

11:20 a.m.

Chief Electoral Officer of Canada

Marc Mayrand

To the regulations, not the act.

11:20 a.m.

Conservative

Tom Lukiwski Conservative Regina—Lumsden—Lake Centre, SK

Okay, to the regulations.

I think parliamentarians should have the ability to direct that as well.

There are a number of other areas, both technical—which you mentioned you'd have the ability to do—and more substantive policy changes that I think the parliamentarians need to be involved in. I know you're somewhat reticent to make comment or give an opinion on this, but my opinion, for the members of this committee and for the record, is that I very strongly believe this committee needs to do an extensive review of the act itself and then bring you, and many other witnesses, of course, forward to give us some advice, and then to make some recommendations for some very substantive policy changes.

With respect to your suggestion that if we were to do a review perhaps it would be best served if you did not offer any technical recommendations, I don't think that would be a problem. I frankly would like to see any and all recommendations you have regarding the act. I think that would help us.

11:20 a.m.

Chief Electoral Officer of Canada

Marc Mayrand

My reservation in that regard is only that if there are substantive policy changes, it may influence the specifics of the technical recommendations, but I'm sure this can be worked out.

11:20 a.m.

Conservative

Tom Lukiwski Conservative Regina—Lumsden—Lake Centre, SK

Yes.

So I don't really have any direct questions of you. Some of my colleagues may have, but I just wanted to indicate for the record that I think some major revisions within the act are needed and I think this committee would probably be the best body in Parliament to engage in a review and conduct this study.

Mr. Chair, I'll cede the rest of my time to any of my colleagues who have questions.

11:20 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Joe Preston

Mr. Albrecht.