Evidence of meeting #49 for Procedure and House Affairs in the 40th Parliament, 3rd Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was costs.
A recording is available from Parliament.
3:20 p.m.
Conservative
Scott Armstrong Conservative Cumberland—Colchester—Musquodoboit Valley, NS
He would not have had access to previous prime ministers' documents.
3:20 p.m.
Conservative
Scott Armstrong Conservative Cumberland—Colchester—Musquodoboit Valley, NS
Why should today's parliamentarians have access to cabinet documents that maybe the sitting Prime Minister would not have? Can you explain to me the problem that presents?
3:20 p.m.
As an Individual
I've already said that I don't think parliamentarians, with the greatest respect for MPs, should have access to cabinet confidences, point finale.
3:20 p.m.
Conservative
Scott Armstrong Conservative Cumberland—Colchester—Musquodoboit Valley, NS
You would call yourself as a previous clerk a strong defender of cabinet confidences.
3:20 p.m.
As an Individual
I think I actually said I am a big defender of cabinet confidences. Those were my words and my remarks.
3:20 p.m.
Conservative
Scott Armstrong Conservative Cumberland—Colchester—Musquodoboit Valley, NS
You also said there are some times and some decisions where we have to protect information because it's for the good of the country.
3:20 p.m.
As an Individual
Exactly. As Mr. Godin said, even in caucus you recognize that it's important to have some secrecy.
3:20 p.m.
Conservative
Scott Armstrong Conservative Cumberland—Colchester—Musquodoboit Valley, NS
I want to ask about questions on the order paper now, so I'm going to switch topics. How much time, effort, and resources go into preparing order papers? Is it a huge amount of time?
3:20 p.m.
Conservative
3:20 p.m.
Conservative
Scott Armstrong Conservative Cumberland—Colchester—Musquodoboit Valley, NS
Questions on the order paper, yes.
3:20 p.m.
Conservative
Scott Armstrong Conservative Cumberland—Colchester—Musquodoboit Valley, NS
At times, on some of these, thousands of pages may have to be reviewed. Is that correct?
3:20 p.m.
As an Individual
Sure. It's the cost of democracy. You, ladies and gentlemen, are MPs and need to receive that kind of information. When there's a request, there's a whole phalanx of officials who review the documents to provide you with answers to your questions.
3:20 p.m.
Conservative
Scott Armstrong Conservative Cumberland—Colchester—Musquodoboit Valley, NS
There are some new rules that require responses to these questions within 45 calendar days, and the matter goes to committee if it's not answered in time. Did you know that over 1,000 of these questions have been written by staff in the opposition research offices and tabled? What kind of burden would that put upon the public officials?
3:20 p.m.
Conservative
Scott Armstrong Conservative Cumberland—Colchester—Musquodoboit Valley, NS
A huge burden. With these new rules and constant questions being asked and constant inquiries being done, many times not by MPs but by staff, this is going to stretch the resources of our public service to the limit, do you think?
3:20 p.m.
As an Individual
Mr. Armstrong, I mentioned that my new role is professor at the School of Public Policy and Governance at the University of Toronto, and it's like asking me if you think education is expensive. Education is expensive, but the alternative is worse.
3:20 p.m.
Conservative
Scott Armstrong Conservative Cumberland—Colchester—Musquodoboit Valley, NS
My last question is on redactions. When you were the clerk, you were responsible for doing redactions. What type of criteria were set? How were they set? How did you apply them?
3:20 p.m.
As an Individual
For redaction, it's pretty straightforward, actually, in the act. Every now and then you'll see a document come out of two departments and it will be the same document slightly differently redacted, but the same criteria are being applied. It's human beings who are applying them. They make judgments, and sometimes they're different, but they aren't dramatically different. There is guidance in this, and one puts one's mind to asking, is this a true challenge to the national interest, to national security, for instance? Is this going to compromise an investigation under 16.1? Is this going to reveal advice to ministers?
Under section 21 it says you do not release advice to ministers. I think the release of the document of CIDA's president's advice to Minister Oda was wrong and shouldn't have been released. I know the Department of Justice thinks differently, but that was advice to a minister. I think what happens is there is a chill that comes out to public servants if they see their advice coming out in public. It is not desirable and it's better to keep it secret.
3:20 p.m.
Conservative
The Chair Conservative Joe Preston
Thank you, sir. I know that time flies when you're having fun.
Madame DeBellefeuille, are you taking this four minutes?
3:20 p.m.
Bloc
Claude DeBellefeuille Bloc Beauharnois—Salaberry, QC
Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
Good afternoon, Mr. Cappe. You are our first witness today to enjoy tremendous freedom, given that you no longer have to be accountable to anyone but yourself. It's a great privilege to have you here today. Your expertise will be extremely valuable.
We are confronted with a government that likes to control information, be it in relation to reporters, citizens or parliamentarians. When you are Clerk of the Privy Council, are you ever told to make a very restrictive selection of Cabinet documents deemed to be secret or confidential, which, in a way, is a way of circumventing the Access to Information Act? Can you be directed in such a way as to end up aligning yourself with the ideology or approach of the government in office?
3:25 p.m.
As an Individual
I would say no. As I mentioned earlier, the criteria are relatively clear. Of course you do have to form a judgment, but clerks' interpretation of Cabinet confidences has not varied over the years.