Evidence of meeting #51 for Procedure and House Affairs in the 40th Parliament, 3rd Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was decision.

A recording is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Ned Franks  Professor Emeritus, Department of Political Studies, Queen's University, As an Individual
Margaret Biggs  President, Canadian International Development Agency
Mary Corkery  Executive Director, Canadian Ecumenical Justice Initiatives (KAIROS)
Rob Walsh  Law Clerk and Parliamentary Counsel, House of Commons
Clerk of the Committee  Ms. Michelle Tittley

11:40 a.m.

NDP

Pat Martin NDP Winnipeg Centre, MB

Mr. Chairman, as I see it, the minister's offence is twofold. First, she has deliberately misled--I believe she has deliberately misled--Parliament, this committee, and the general public, whether by omission or commission, and one is as serious as the other. There's a point in law that says a person can be presumed to have intended the probable outcome of his or her actions.

You knew the probable outcome of your actions.

Through you, Mr. Chairman, she knew that the world would believe that CIDA cancelled Kairos' funding, not that the politically ideological opinion of the cabinet had found its way into what should be an impartial analysis of an application for funding by an NGO.

The second offence, which is almost as bad, in my view, is that she has kneecapped her senior officials. She has cut the legs out from under the bureaucrats, who are just trying to do their jobs. This is what Ned Franks told this committee about today: we don't have a good mechanism for dealing with this kind of dilemma in Canada. If this were Britain...the secretary of the cabinet has been known to take ministers to task when they lie about the advice they have been given, or otherwise betray the trust and honour of the public service, as he put it.

Unfortunately, there is no such check and balance in our Canadian parliamentary system, in that the Clerk of the Privy Council is actually Deputy Minister to the Prime Minister, so nobody is going to come rushing to the defence of people whose opinions were misrepresented by their minister. That, to me, is as offensive as and of a scale of the contempt she has shown for Parliament by deliberately misleading the House of Commons.

I'll ask her one more time if she will table the examples, the documents. If this is a normal, frequent, and common practice in her department, will she table those documents? I would ask you, Mr. Chair, to ask the minister or direct the minister to do so.

11:40 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Joe Preston

The minister has already shared with this committee and asked through the chair that they give the documents to this committee for distribution.

11:40 a.m.

NDP

Pat Martin NDP Winnipeg Centre, MB

That's good enough then.

She would have us believe it's a common and frequent practice to use the auto-pen. What percentage of the 758-some applications are dealt with by auto-pen in a given year?

11:40 a.m.

Conservative

Bev Oda Conservative Durham, ON

I can't give you that information.

I'll ask Madam Biggs if she's able to give you that information.

11:40 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Joe Preston

That may be a good idea.

Madam Biggs.

11:40 a.m.

President, Canadian International Development Agency

Margaret Biggs

I'm sorry, I can't.

11:40 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Joe Preston

Will you endeavour to get that to us if you can?

March 18th, 2011 / 11:40 a.m.

President, Canadian International Development Agency

11:40 a.m.

NDP

Pat Martin NDP Winnipeg Centre, MB

Just for our purposes, is it rare or frequent? Do 80% get signed by auto-pen? Do 10% get signed by auto-pen? Give us an idea.

11:40 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Joe Preston

Do you want to venture a guess?

11:40 a.m.

Conservative

Bev Oda Conservative Durham, ON

I don't want to venture a guess, Mr. Chair.

11:40 a.m.

NDP

Pat Martin NDP Winnipeg Centre, MB

Come on.

11:40 a.m.

Conservative

Bev Oda Conservative Durham, ON

I'm here with the facts. I'll try to--

11:40 a.m.

NDP

Pat Martin NDP Winnipeg Centre, MB

We expect ministers to conduct themselves with the highest standard of honesty. She misled the foreign affairs committee when she said she didn't know who put in the word “not”. She was on the phone to her chief of staff saying, “Cancel the Kairos funding.”

A fulsome answer to Mr. McKay's question at the foreign affairs committee would have been, “I don't know who actually pencilled in the word “not”, but I directed Stephanie Machel to do it.” That would have been a fulsome, honest answer--none of this splitting hairs and weaseling around.

You should be the minister of weasel words, instead of the minister of CIDA. You're disappointing us profoundly.

11:40 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Joe Preston

Have a little respect, Mr. Martin, please.

11:40 a.m.

NDP

Pat Martin NDP Winnipeg Centre, MB

Where is the auto-pen physically kept in your office? Is it kept in a locked drawer?

11:40 a.m.

Conservative

Bev Oda Conservative Durham, ON

Mr. Chair, just to notify you, I will take as much time to answer as the full question that was posed to me, please.

11:40 a.m.

NDP

Pat Martin NDP Winnipeg Centre, MB

Where is the auto-pen kept in your office physically?

11:40 a.m.

Conservative

Bev Oda Conservative Durham, ON

First of all, let me say it is physically housed in one of the smaller offices within the area in which my staff are located.

11:40 a.m.

NDP

Pat Martin NDP Winnipeg Centre, MB

Is it under lock and key?

11:40 a.m.

Conservative

Bev Oda Conservative Durham, ON

The device is under lock and key.

11:45 a.m.

NDP

Pat Martin NDP Winnipeg Centre, MB

How many people have the right to use it?

11:45 a.m.

Conservative

Bev Oda Conservative Durham, ON

As I indicated, two public servant officials, CIDA officials, are authorized to use the auto-pen in my office.

11:45 a.m.

NDP

Pat Martin NDP Winnipeg Centre, MB

Do they only unlock that sealed box to use the auto-pen on specific instruction from you yourself?

11:45 a.m.

Conservative

Bev Oda Conservative Durham, ON

No. As I indicated, I give instructions to my political staff, who are the minister's staff. I indicate my decision to my staff, who are then asked to follow through on the process required to indicate--