Evidence of meeting #48 for Procedure and House Affairs in the 41st Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was loans.
A video is available from Parliament.
11:35 a.m.
Conservative
Scott Reid Conservative Lanark—Frontenac—Lennox and Addington, ON
Oh, I see. Where it's not legal for me to give some money to someone on the condition that they donate it, it is legal for me to give someone the money on the condition that they loan it. Is that the point you're making?
11:35 a.m.
Chief Electoral Officer, Elections Canada
That's my reading of the legislation after Bill C-21.
11:35 a.m.
Conservative
Scott Reid Conservative Lanark—Frontenac—Lennox and Addington, ON
As things stand now, as the status quo exists, would that be unlawful under the current legislation?
11:35 a.m.
Conservative
Scott Reid Conservative Lanark—Frontenac—Lennox and Addington, ON
No, no, but....
Oh, I see. Right. Of course.
But if I were to give somebody some money and say now go out and loan it to whoever for whatever reason, would that actually be unlawful at this point?
11:35 a.m.
Conservative
Scott Reid Conservative Lanark—Frontenac—Lennox and Addington, ON
Of course, if I can just make the loan myself, anyway, there'd be no point in doing it.
11:35 a.m.
Conservative
11:35 a.m.
Chief Electoral Officer, Elections Canada
There are no limits on loans right now.
11:35 a.m.
Conservative
Scott Reid Conservative Lanark—Frontenac—Lennox and Addington, ON
So the point you're really driving at is that as the bill attempts to close off various loopholes, it may have simply left one that was unanticipated.
Okay. I just wanted to get my head around what you were saying there. Thank you for that.
You suggested, and I have a feeling it's not a very firm suggestion, $4,000 as a possible amount that a person could loan to themselves for a nomination in a riding. Was that—
11:35 a.m.
Chief Electoral Officer, Elections Canada
No. For a candidate. If I were to put my mind around a nomination contest, I suspect it would be lower for a nomination contest.
11:35 a.m.
Conservative
Scott Reid Conservative Lanark—Frontenac—Lennox and Addington, ON
Oh, I see. So that's for a national leadership candidate?
11:40 a.m.
Chief Electoral Officer, Elections Canada
It's for a candidate in an election.
11:40 a.m.
Conservative
Scott Reid Conservative Lanark—Frontenac—Lennox and Addington, ON
Right. Okay.
I'm not trying to pin you down to $4,000. As I said, I think you simply pulled that number out as an example. I just want to make sure I get a sense of what you're proposing here.
One of the things that strike me is that when one tries to raise funds, one faces fundraising costs. If, for example, candidate X decides to run for the leadership of....
Well, we're going to have a leadership race for the Liberal Party. Let's imagine that the law was already in place and candidate X seeks to hold a fundraising event. There are costs associated with that.
Are you thinking that those would be counted as part of this, or do you regard these as being separate things and as not being limited under the proposed bill?
11:40 a.m.
Chief Electoral Officer, Elections Canada
In the current regime, it would be part of it. That's why I'm suggesting, especially for candidates, that there be a bit of an allowance for a seed loan to run those events.
There's a cost to hosting those funding events. Often they have to be paid in advance. That seed money would allow them to at least get going.
11:40 a.m.
Conservative
Scott Reid Conservative Lanark—Frontenac—Lennox and Addington, ON
Right.
I'm thinking primarily, when I raise these things, about payables, carrying costs. What can happen sometimes is that these can carry on for some length of time. It's not just difficult to get bills and turn them over that quickly; there are also cashflow issues.
I'm anxious to make sure that whatever comes out of the mill, after we deal with this bill, we don't create a situation where people who are candidates for the leadership of a party, or for a nomination, are technically running afoul of the law when really there's no intent to run afoul. I particularly don't want to face the danger where it becomes impossible to conduct a normal campaign without running afoul of the law. That's a real concern, I think.
I'm wondering if you could comment on that.
11:40 a.m.
Chief Electoral Officer, Elections Canada
That's a concern I would share, especially with the $1,200 contribution limit that's proposed by the bill. Someone could extend a loan, maybe get a repayment, and attend a funding event for another EDA during the year. It can become very difficult for the political entities to track those down and easy for the contributor to lose sight of where they stand exactly with regard to their limits.
11:40 a.m.
Conservative
11:40 a.m.
Conservative
Scott Reid Conservative Lanark—Frontenac—Lennox and Addington, ON
All right. I'll have time to work on it and make it extra good.
Thank you, Mr. Chair, and thank you, Mr. Mayrand.
11:40 a.m.
NDP
Craig Scott NDP Toronto—Danforth, ON
Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.
I wanted to follow up a little bit further, Monsieur Mayrand, on this question of seed funding and whatever amounts one guesses at. The fact of the matter is that for most local campaigns, the fundraising itself, which is part of the campaign activity, doesn't really get going until at least a couple of weeks in, in terms of when money starts rolling in.
So seed funding often might need to be more than, say, a ballpark $4,000. It might be prudent to have a fair bit more if you know the record in the riding is that you're able to raise a fair bit more.
Is it your reading of the bill that if an EDA were to seek a loan of, let's say, $20,000, you would actually need, say, 15 guarantors, or 16 guarantors, because the guarantors can't go above $1,200? Is that correct?
11:40 a.m.
NDP
Craig Scott NDP Toronto—Danforth, ON
Great. I know you're not in the business of saying how banks will or will not act, but my serious worry is that the kind of paperwork involved here to go beyond a few thousand dollars in a seed loan could be extreme for a bank. When they have to track 15 to 20 guarantors for a $20,000 loan, for example, that could itself be a disincentive to lend, from a business case perspective. Do you have any concerns along those lines?
