Procedure and House Affairs Committee on Oct. 24th, 2013

[Tom Lukiwski, Conservative, Regina—Lumsden—Lake Centre, SK]

Yes, I would suggest that we give it a few minutes to let the members around the table read and let's get back to where we were.

[The Chair, Conservative, Joe Preston]

All right, I would suggest that when you're finished reading, put your head down and I'll know when you've all finished.

We'll suspend until that happens.

[The Chair, Conservative, Joe Preston]

Hi folks. We're back. At this moment we still have before us a motion from Mr. Reid with an amendment from Mr. Lamoureux, and we are speaking on the amendment. When we last left, Mr. Christopherson was deep into the explanation of it.

Mr. Christopherson, would you like to go back for us and maybe repeat some of the nice things you said?

[David Christopherson, NDP, Hamilton Centre, ON]

Thank you very much. I thought that would be a safe place to start, Chair, to pick up with the compliments to the chair on his fine job. That's been proven again this morning by the way you are handling this business, giving the caucuses an opportunity to see if we can find a way procedurally out of this to allow us to give due regard to the matter in front of us, but also to recognize that other important work needs to be done.

I did give those words of praise a little bit tongue in cheek, but I did mean them sincerely, and I do mean it that this morning is another example of good chairing as far as I'm concerned.

On the matter at hand, we appreciate very much the clerk doing the homework for us. Unfortunately the answers lead to us realizing the worst-case scenario, that indeed this is not some minor, little matter. This is indeed going to deny rights to independent members of parliament that they currently enjoy.

I have to say again how unacceptable it is that something that's this big a change is being done in such a ham-fisted manner.

I understand that it's just not as simple as coming in here and doing a strategic strike on certain members' rights. It's happening at other committees with the same motion, so clearly there's a concerted effort on the part of the government to ensure that the rights currently enjoyed by independent members are snuffed out. And so it does speak to how much respect the government really has for independent members of Parliament and Parliament itself. To bring it in this fashion and to be willing to hold....

The only reason we didn't hold up the important work at the last meeting was that there was a mechanism available, and luckily we had enough goodwill between the House leaders and whips that we were able to get that report to Parliament and other important business going, but this government was prepared to hold that up to ram this through. That's what's starting us on a wrong foot before we even get to the substantive matters.

I want to remind colleagues that the response we just got from the clerk was as a result of a very legitimate, intelligent, obvious question from Mr. Julian, which was whether, if we make this change, there will be other unintended consequences—or in the case of the government, intended consequences perhaps.

Then we asked further about it, when the clerk responded that it was certainly a valid but complex question. Given the importance of what clerks tell us at committees and how that affects the work we do, and being a responsible clerk to arguably the most important committee we have, she wanted to make sure that the advice given would be dead on accurate and said that it would take at least 48 hours to get that information.

So the next common sense thing happened, and that was a motion to table. We have a very important matter in front of us. We've asked for information at the first review of this motion. The clerk has advised that it takes 48 hours to get us that information. The government didn't offer it up by way of saying they already had that; they sat there dead quiet. So we moved a motion saying let's table this for two days to get us to where we are today, and in the meantime at that meeting we would get on. This committee had important work.

Some of the work of this committee is indeed allowing and making possible the work of other groups and other committees. This kind of thing matters.

[The Chair, Conservative, Joe Preston]

Mr. Lamoureux.

[Kevin Lamoureux, Liberal, Winnipeg North, MB]

Mr. Chairperson, on a point of order—and maybe it's a good time for me to pick up on what David has emphasized in terms of other committees—I'm going to ask if we could canvass the committee to see if there would be unanimous support or leave for us to look at something we were instructed to do by the House.

We know that the Board of Internal Economy has been a very hotly debated issue. One of the things we wanted to do was to look at replacing that particular board. This committee has to conduct a study, and that report has to be back by December 2. So we have a very short window in which to call witnesses and do a whole litany of things that need to be done in order to make that happen.

I'm wondering if you wouldn't mind canvassing the committee to see if in fact there would be unanimous support for us to at the very least deal with that issue. Then we'll go back to the subamendment I brought forward. I appreciate what David is suggesting. If we could do that, I think it would be very helpful in terms of our being able to hit that December 2 target.

[The Chair, Conservative, Joe Preston]

Again, from a procedural point of view, it's very hard for me to accept a request for unanimous consent under a point of order, so at this moment I'm going to have to let Mr. Christopherson carry on. Hopefully, if he agrees with you, he may want to have some discussion during his dissertation about the same.

Are you on the same point of order, Mr. Cullen?

[Nathan Cullen, NDP, Skeena—Bulkley Valley, BC]

No, I'll follow Mr. Christopherson. I'm putting my name on the list. Thank you, Chair.

[The Chair, Conservative, Joe Preston]

By all means, certainly.

[David Christopherson, NDP, Hamilton Centre, ON]

Thank you, Chair.

Given there may be some fluidity to this, I'll make a few comments. I can always get back on the list and keep going if necessary, but hopefully it will not be.

Let me finish concluding my opening thoughts, Chair. I was at the point of recapping what happened at the last meeting leading us to wonder what on earth the government was doing and why they are doing it this way. There was no heads-up given by the lead on the government side to our House leader or our whip to say that this was coming and that it was important. There was nothing. It looked like a bit of an ambush.

I could be wrong, Chair, but I'm not sure even one government member made the case for why this should change, or why there shouldn't be a delay, or refute any of the allegations or concerns we have been raising. They didn't say a word to the best of my knowledge. I stand to be corrected, but I don't recall an engagement on the part of the government in any meaningful way vis-à-vis the process and the unfairness of it, or the content of what is in the motion that's before us now. All of that has us wondering. Then we see it happening at other committees.

The government wonders why it has the reputation it has. It doesn't happen because of just one issue; it's drip, drip, drip, this constant taking of shortcuts with our democratic processes, ignoring laws that you yourselves brought in, such as the fixed election date. It happens all the time, being found in contempt of Parliament, and all of these things. You'd think this government would want to change that channel. This would be the perfect time, two years away from the election with lots of time to sort of change things. Instead, the first thing they do is roll in and try to steamroll over the rest of Parliament.

[The Chair, Conservative, Joe Preston]

On a second point of order, Mr. Reid.

[Scott Reid, Conservative, Lanark—Frontenac—Lennox and Addington, ON]

I was on this very committee that dealt with the contempt of Parliament issue. We were not found in contempt of Parliament; we were defeated while that debate was still going on in this committee.

[The Chair, Conservative, Joe Preston]

Thank you. I was there also.

Mr. Christopherson.

[David Christopherson, NDP, Hamilton Centre, ON]

Again, I appreciate that, Mr. Reid, but that's exactly the response, isn't it? Every time they get nailed or are being called on something for being undemocratic, they find some little technicality to stand on and say, “Well, that's not right because we have this one little thing.”

The fact of the matter is that the issue of contempt of Parliament was worn by this government. I would have thought this would be a perfect time, with a Speech from the Throne and a new session, for the government to try to do things differently so they would have a different image going into the election. Yet the first thing they do, at one of the most important committees of Parliament, is get ham-fisted and try to ram through a major change to how we make laws without any respect or due regard for other members of Parliament or proper, fair process.

If the government has any doubt about why we're where we are today, they need to look in the mirror. It would seem that this isn't over, that there is more to this than meets the eye, given what's happening at other committees.

If the government thinks that somehow we were just going to agree and roll over on the rights of other members even thought it doesn't affect us directly, they're sadly mistaken, and they should have known ahead of time that they'd be sadly mistaken.

We are not going to sit here and allow any member of Parliament's rights to be snuffed out by this government, particularly through an unfair process that does not give due respect to everybody in this place and the right to have a fair process around it. That's the foundation of our concerns about where we are.

With that, Chair, I will relinquish the floor and ask to be put back on the list.

[The Chair, Conservative, Joe Preston]

All right, Mr. Christopherson, we'll put your name back on.

Mr. Julian, you are next.

[Peter Julian, NDP, Burnaby—New Westminster, BC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

On Tuesday, as committee members, we asked the clerk a series of questions. You'll recall, Mr. Chair, that the Conservative members did not want answers to those questions. Now we've had the answers given to us by the clerk this morning. Through you, Mr. Chair, I'd like to thank the clerk. This is extremely important information.

The clerk cites the evidence from the Standing Orders of the House of Commons that the Speaker will normally select only motions that were not or could not be presented at committee. Also shown is the reference of June 6, 2013, in which the Speaker said very clearly that for the reasons listed above, the chair did not select any motions at report stage that could have been considered in committee.

So there is no doubt that this motion brought forward by Mr. Reid, which the Conservatives attempted to ram through at the last committee meeting, despite the fact that we were, as committee members, asking for clarification.... They were doing it because, I gather, Mr. Chair, they were expecting that the opposition would simply not understand the implications of that and that we wouldn't ask the correct questions. Well, they're sorely wrong, Mr. Chair.

The reality is that what we suspected has been confirmed today. This is very clearly an attempt to do only one thing, which is to bulldoze away the rights of those members of Parliament who have been elected by Canadians and who are either independents or belong to parties that are not recognized in the House of Commons.

Mr. Chair, I will say that I believe it is despicable that the Conservatives would attempt to hold up the study that Parliament asked all of us to do, the study to look into the issue of MPs' expenses and doing away with the Board of Internal Economy and the self-policing, which I have no doubt Canadians support doing. The Conservatives tried to hold it up by throwing forward a motion that is designed to eliminate the rights of those members who don't belong to recognized party caucuses.

There is simply no reason and no justification for what Conservatives did on Tuesday, Mr. Chair. It is even more disturbing when we think that this has now been systematically raised at committees right across the House of Commons.

We believe fundamentally in the democratic rights of parliamentarians. Whether we agree or disagree with a parliamentarian, it is not up to any one of us to say that we are going to destroy the rights of those members of Parliament who are elected as independents or elected from non-recognized parties. Whether we're talking about Ms. May or anyone else, they have a right to speak and represent their constituents.

The Conservatives, on Tuesday, pushed forward on a motion that very clearly, from the interpretation we got back today, rips aside those rights.

Mr. Chair, I will say I'm very saddened by this. We had a throne speech last week and there has probably been no point in Canadian history at which a throne speech has been ripped up and thrown in the shredder as quickly as this throne speech has been.

I'll just remind the members opposite of how the throne speech started off. It said two things, speaking to all Canadians, that as Canadians we are inclusive and that Canadians are honourable. Well, Mr. Chair, this is not an inclusive act. This is an act that is designed to exclude members of Parliament who don't come from a recognized party even though they're elected by Canadians in their ridings and have a right to represent their voters and all of their constituents in the House of Commons, and they have the right that's been granted to them through parliamentary tradition to use the report stage to bring forward amendments to bills they feel strongly about. This is not an inclusive act. This is a very exclusive act, the kind of act that a desperate government would put into place. It completely belies all of the language in the throne speech we heard last week.

As for the second thing, that we are honourable, Mr. Chair, I have no doubt that Canadians are honourable. I have no doubt that if this issue were put to Canadians across the country, even in Conservative-held ridings, they would say, “Well hold on. Why are we attacking those who are from non-recognized parties? Why are we attacking Ms. May? Why are we attacking an independent member like Mr. Rathgeber, who is representing his constituents and trying to do a good job on their behalf?” Why are we attacking them when we, as parliamentarians from recognized parties, have those tools and they have one tool, which is report stage amendments?

If we ask what the honourable action is, Mr. Chair, the honourable action for this government and members of the governing party on this committee is simply to withdraw this. The motion is not appropriate at all. It completely contradicts the throne speech and the language that was supposed to set a new tone for the government. What it really does is to put us back on a path of confrontation and denial of democratic rights. It is not for the Prime Minister and government members to try to shut down the few tools that members from non-recognized parties have.

If we're talking about independent members, if we're talking about Ms. May, they have a right to be here. They have a right to represent their constituents. They already cannot be members of committees. They're already excluded from a number of fora. That I understand, because you do have to have a minimum level for participation in committees. That I can perhaps understand, but I cannot understand a government that tries to rip apart the rights that they've acquired over decades. It's not an easy thing to present report stage amendments. I don't think Ms. May particularly enjoys doing it, but it's the one tool she has to represent her constituents. She had a right to do that. This motion that was presented on Tuesday rips apart those fundamental rights—and we now have confirmation of it.

Perhaps government members could have said on Tuesday, “Well, we don't know any better”. That still doesn't explain why they refused the tabling motion that we put forward, which was a very reasonable approach. But now they understand. Now we have the interpretation. Now we know that what this does is to gut report stage amendment rights. That is very unfortunate at a time when Canadians across this country are asking for more democracy, at a time when Canadians are saying that what we need to have is more transparency in government.

We have a government that prorogued Parliament for a month, saying that they wanted to reset the agenda and come back with a new agenda. Well, sadly, Mr. Chair, this new agenda seems just as darkly unfortunate and disrespectful of democratic rights as the old agenda was. I think, Mr. Chair, that's a very unfortunate thing.

Now to conclude, because I know there are other members who want to speak, we couldn't support a motion like this. We find it unfortunate that it was presented on Tuesday. We find it unfortunate, now that we have the interpretation, that Conservatives seem to want to try to ram this through.

What we want to do is get to the study that Canadians are asking us to do, to do away with that secretive self-policing in the Board of Internal Economy and put in place the kind of transparency the NDP has always called for with MPs' expenses.

With that, Mr. Chair, I am—

[An hon. member]

Keep talking to it.

[Peter Julian, NDP, Burnaby—New Westminster, BC]

—just going to speak for a couple more minutes because I've just realized that I have some additional things I want to bring forward.

[An hon. member]

It's okay, let's just him speak.

[Peter Julian, NDP, Burnaby—New Westminster, BC]

Go ahead, you can finish.

Well, okay, Mr. Chair. I've just realized that there are other things that I can add.

Now, Mr. Chair, in the throne speech there was also the comment that we are smart. In referring to all Canadians, Mr. Chair, I would certainly agree that Canadians are profoundly smart and intelligent. They can see through government manipulation.

Now, as for the blunt-headed way this was brought forward Tuesday, thrown onto the floor as if somehow opposition members wouldn't be aware of it, wouldn't understand exactly what the connotations, impacts, and consequences were, that wasn't a smart move, Mr. Chair. That wasn't a smart move at all. What that indeed did, I think, was heighten our suspicion that there was something untoward in the whole approach.

Mr. Chair, I'll say this just one more time. We believe very strongly that we need to proceed to the committee report, as that's what we've been charged to do. Let's do away with the secretive Board of Internal Economy. Let's move forward on transparency of MPs' expenses and let's drop this idea of oppressing non-recognized parties' members of Parliament and suppressing their rights to report stage amendments.

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

[The Chair, Conservative, Joe Preston]

Thank you, Mr. Julian.

I have next on my list Monsieur Bellavance, but I'll need to ask the committee for their permission to have Monsieur Bellavance speak today. It's our standard procedure.

Those in favour? Those against?

(Motion agreed to)

Monsieur Bellavance, please share your comments with us.

[André Bellavance, Bloc, Richmond—Arthabaska, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

That is one example of the issues faced by members of an unrecognized party, and even by independent members, although there is a difference between a member from an unrecognized party and an independent member. Since there are fewer than 12 members of the Bloc Québécois, it is not a recognized party; the same thing applies to Ms. May's party. Independent members have chosen their status, or they have been excluded by their caucus. Whatever the case, the difficulties I was referring to remain the same: the members from an unrecognized party have to ask for the committee's unanimous consent to speak on a topic that concerns them. That is one of the problems we encounter.

I will not take all of the remaining time to discuss this, but I would like to suggest the following: rather than debate a motion on the amendments, I would like the committee to devote a few sessions to studying the rights of members belonging to unrecognized parties, and those of independent members.

To illustrate what I mean, I would like to refer to what happened at the Quebec National Assembly. At the time, the Action démocratique du Québec party, which had four members, was an unrecognized party. The other parties had discussed the possibility of having these members take part in parliamentary committees, which are known as parliamentary commissions in Quebec. That had been accepted. The same thing goes for the party Québec solidaire. At the beginning, that party had only one member; today, it has two. These members also have the opportunity to take part in committee studies, and they have the same rights and privileges as the other members.

I'm not taking about equality here. We understand full well that the Conservative Party is the majority party and that the NDP is the official opposition, and then come the Liberals. We can't have the same speaking time as they do. Our interventions cannot be as long as those of the members of those parties. Nevertheless, we would like the Standing Committee on Procedure and House Affairs to examine this question more in depth, and not simply through a single motion.

As for the motion as such, I would simply like the “blues” to reflect what the Bloc Québécois has to say on the matter. I'm going to talk about the inherent rights of all of the members regarding the tabling of amendments. Following the speaker's decision last June, we went to a few committees to submit amendments, but that is all we did. We had the right to submit amendments, and perhaps to a few minutes to present our case. That is where there should be a difference. The motion should be clearer for the members. When amendments are tabled, at least in committees, the members of an unrecognized party and independent members should have the right to answer questions raised by their amendments and to question witnesses. We should also have the right to vote, at least on our own amendments. As you can see I am even limiting our rights there.

Actually, there are two categories of members, the members from a recognized party and the members from an unrecognized party. There are also independent members who are in a second category and do not have the same rights as the others, with all due respect. Of course, the relative weight we have in the House of Commons has to be taken into account. I will never ask to have the same speaking time as the members of the official opposition or the government party, but I would at the very least like to be able to submit arguments on my amendments.

In light of what I have just said, this motion is incomplete. That is all I am going to say for the time being, but that is my party's opinion. I hope that I will be able to take part in your discussions again.

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

[The Chair, Conservative, Joe Preston]

Thank you, Mr. Bellavance.

Next on my list I have Mr. Cullen.

[Nathan Cullen, NDP, Skeena—Bulkley Valley, BC]

I think Mr. Christopherson and Mr. Julian articulated well the basis of the government's intentions here, and also the awful nature with which the process has been used. Changing the way we make laws in Canada and in our Parliament without a bit of evidence or argument coming from the government should give everybody pause, and in fact suspicion, including members of the government. When someone brings forward an idea to change things fundamentally and won't back it up, one should be a bit worried: “Please, buy my car. Can I test drive it? No. What's the price? I can't tell you; just buy the car.” Most Canadians would walk out of that dealership.

Most Canadians are looking at the shortcuts this government has taken around the inconveniences of democracy—the omnibus bill, stuffing the Senate, and on down the list—and seeing that it all comes back. It's a remarkable natural fact in democracy.

I believe, Chair, this comes out of the discomfort the government had around C-38, their omnibus bill, which was in and of itself an abuse of power in ramming so many things together and pretending they were all one thing and then trying to ram it through Parliament. The fact was one of the independents in Parliament who could not present at a committee, Madam A, then used her privileges to move amendments in the House that ended up causing the government some discomfort because they had to sit there and vote over and over again. I think you remember it well, Chair.

The fact of the matter is the government could avoid all of this mess if they started to actually pay attention and respect our democratic institutions, this place itself. All of these things start to go away because there is decency.

We had a time allocation motion moved this morning, Chair, on a bill in the House that was meant to be debated for five days, which we had agreed to debate for five days. The government's next action was to shut down the debate in five days. It's evidence-based decision-making gone to decision-based evidence-making.

There's no evidence for this argument. Changing laws on the fly is dangerous. We're deeply concerned with what the government is doing. We will resist its attempt to do this.

[The Chair, Conservative, Joe Preston]

A point of order. Please go ahead.