Sorry?
Evidence of meeting #20 for Procedure and House Affairs in the 41st Parliament, 2nd Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was elections.
A video is available from Parliament.
Evidence of meeting #20 for Procedure and House Affairs in the 41st Parliament, 2nd Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was elections.
A video is available from Parliament.
1:10 p.m.
Conservative
Tom Lukiwski Conservative Regina—Lumsden—Lake Centre, SK
How many was the actual number, not an estimate? You have all the records.
1:10 p.m.
Chief Electoral Officer, Elections Canada
Yes, but the records are sealed. These are election documents that are sealed.
1:10 p.m.
Conservative
Tom Lukiwski Conservative Regina—Lumsden—Lake Centre, SK
Just a minute now. You're saying, according to your rules—
1:10 p.m.
Chief Electoral Officer, Elections Canada
Those are the rules of legislation.
1:10 p.m.
Conservative
Tom Lukiwski Conservative Regina—Lumsden—Lake Centre, SK
Are you saying that we cannot then know how many Canadians actually vouched for another Canadian?
1:10 p.m.
Chief Electoral Officer, Elections Canada
Not unless you open the polling bags, which are sealed. There are specific provisions in the statute—
1:10 p.m.
Conservative
Tom Lukiwski Conservative Regina—Lumsden—Lake Centre, SK
How did we come up with the number of 120,000?
1:10 p.m.
Chief Electoral Officer, Elections Canada
Because under the statute I have authority, on reasonable grounds, to allow the opening of those bags.
In light of Etobicoke, we went back and said that we need to understand better what's going on here, and I authorized the opening of 1,000 bags from across the country. I think it's a fairly solid sample that tells us the issues about the irregularities or errors, as well as the number of people who were vouched for. That's where the 120,000 comes from.
1:10 p.m.
Conservative
Tom Lukiwski Conservative Regina—Lumsden—Lake Centre, SK
Okay.
I understand also in Etobicoke, since you mentioned it, someone had been multiple vouching, vouching for more than one person, which is illegal. Is that correct?
How many of those cases in the sample size of 1,000 that you talked about did you find that multiple vouching took place?
1:10 p.m.
Chief Electoral Officer, Elections Canada
I don't have that number with me, but I could provide it to the committee if needed.
1:10 p.m.
Conservative
Tom Lukiwski Conservative Regina—Lumsden—Lake Centre, SK
The point is the potential for fraud with vouching is obviously there. You have stated you think that it's a fairly precise system, but certainly the potential for vouching is there if one person in Etobicoke was found.
1:10 p.m.
Chief Electoral Officer, Elections Canada
Again, we have to be very careful. It doesn't meet the standards; I agree with that, definitely. It doesn't mean that the individuals were not legitimate electors.
Again, an example that was brought to my attention recently is a co-worker did vouch for several electors. That's not appropriate. But it was recorded. The electors were well identified, well qualified, resided where they voted, and their vote was certainly perfectly legitimate. Again, was the proper procedure followed? No, but I think there's a step, and that's what the Supreme Court is saying. You cannot equate an irregularity with an illegal vote, and that's what we have to be careful of.
1:15 p.m.
Conservative
Tom Lukiwski Conservative Regina—Lumsden—Lake Centre, SK
I appreciate that. My only point is that clearly, wherever vouching takes place, perhaps the majority is above board, but the potential for fraud is there. You must admit, sir, that the only true way to get rid of the potential for fraud under those cases is for proper identification to be provided at the polling station by the individual.
1:15 p.m.
Chief Electoral Officer, Elections Canada
I'm not questioning the need for identification. However, we have—
1:15 p.m.
Conservative
Tom Lukiwski Conservative Regina—Lumsden—Lake Centre, SK
Well, those people who are being vouched for don't have to present identification.
1:15 p.m.
Chief Electoral Officer, Elections Canada
Many of them would have ID, but they would not have an address. That's a problem in this system, a standard Canadian address.
1:15 p.m.
Conservative
Tom Lukiwski Conservative Regina—Lumsden—Lake Centre, SK
When I say “identification”, I mean eligibility: name, address.
1:15 p.m.
Chief Electoral Officer, Elections Canada
They're citizens. They're 18 years old. That's what they need to show to be able to vote, and that they reside in the riding.
1:15 p.m.
Conservative
Tom Lukiwski Conservative Regina—Lumsden—Lake Centre, SK
The only way to absolutely guarantee that is proper identification being presented at the polling station. Is that correct?
1:15 p.m.
Chief Electoral Officer, Elections Canada
I think there are other ways. We have to be careful, because in the next election if those rules go through, you will see in your riding how many people will be sent away, and that will be an issue, I believe.
1:15 p.m.
NDP
Alexandrine Latendresse NDP Louis-Saint-Laurent, QC
Thank you, Mr. Chair.
First of all, I find it odd and disappointing that my colleagues opposite are talking about potential fraud only whereas there were real cases of fraud that should be investigated, and this bill still does not provide the tools to solve those real cases that occurred in the last election.
You were quite clear on this in your presentation, but I still have some questions about the voter information cards. Can you confirm that you or Elections Canada have not recommended that voter information cards no longer be accepted?
