Procedure and House Affairs Committee on March 27th, 2014

[The Chair, Conservative, Joe Preston]

Mr. O'Toole, you're right; you're out of time. Thank you. We go to Madame Latendresse.

You have four minutes.

[Alexandrine Latendresse, NDP, Louis-Saint-Laurent, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Mr. Neufeld, thank you for being here with us today and for giving us clarifications on your report. This report is very conclusive regarding everything that has been done on this topic up till now.

First, I would like to say that I find it deplorable that we are still talking about irregularities that are associated with fraud. According to what you explained, I think it is very clear that that link is not there, and that that is not a reason to completely eliminate identification using the voter information card as well as the use of vouchers. I find this really deplorable.

I'd like to go back briefly to what Mr. Scott asked you earlier. Can you talk to us about your recommendation to change the way in which election workers are hired? I would like you to give us some more details on that because the Chief Electoral Officer also made that recommendation. That would be a very practical solution that would allow people to eliminate errors that are currently linked to the use of vouchers and the use of the voter information card.

Do you think that broadening the pool of candidates for these election official positions, and hiring these people earlier and training them better, would be an acceptable way of improving the voucher system?

[Harry Neufeld]

I was Chief Electoral Officer in British Columbia for the 2005 general election, which was the first fixed-date election at a provincial level in Canada. October 19, 2015, will probably be the first fixed-date general election at the federal level.

One of the advantages of fixed dates, from an election administrator's viewpoint, is that everything becomes like a big project, and you can work backwards. Ideally, you're recruiting your election officers far before the writ is issued. You're not waiting until two weeks before; you're not scrambling at the last minute trying to get training sessions done the night before they go to work. You're trying to do this in a really orderly way. You try to get the best people you can, and you want to make sure that you fit training into their schedules and your schedule. You want to make sure that you have training sessions of like-roled officials at the same time.

So absolutely, having more time to do the training—and the recruitment before the training—really professionally is an advantage, I think, for improving compliance.

[Alexandrine Latendresse, NDP, Louis-Saint-Laurent, QC]

You also recommended that more young people, that is to say people between the ages of 16 and 18, be hired for election worker positions. That is a recommendation we tried to promote a great deal, saying that this would allow these young people to acquire some very concrete experience regarding electoral work.

Do you think this could also be a good way of getting them more involved in the process and of giving them more of a desire to vote?

[Harry Neufeld]

I fully agree that having 16- and 17-year-olds included in being election officials is a positive thing.

When I was in British Columbia, we made it a policy to try to pair up these underage election officers with well-seasoned, older election officers. You would sometimes have an older lady with a blue rinse and a younger person with blue hair, and they would learn lots from each other and were frequently excellent teams.

The young people learn really quickly. Election procedures tend to be fairly complex, and they're really good at doing the complex paperwork and the analysis that's associated with applying it.

[The Chair, Conservative, Joe Preston]

Thank you.

It appears as though we'll have time for one more round here. A three-minute round, I think, could serve us.

Mr. O'Toole.

[Elizabeth May, Green, Saanich—Gulf Islands, BC]

Is there any chance that I could get in on any rounds before Mr. Neufeld leaves?

[The Chair, Conservative, Joe Preston]

Ms. May, you are not assigned to be a member of this committee, and I would need unanimous consent for that to happen.

[Elizabeth May, Green, Saanich—Gulf Islands, BC]

I was hoping you would check for unanimous consent.

[The Chair, Conservative, Joe Preston]

I don't appear to have it.

[Elizabeth May, Green, Saanich—Gulf Islands, BC]

Do you have a secret code? I didn't hear anything.

[The Chair, Conservative, Joe Preston]

I saw a couple of heads shake, so I'm just looking at—

[Scott Simms, Liberal, Bonavista—Gander—Grand Falls—Windsor, NL]

Whose head was that?

I have a point of order.

[The Chair, Conservative, Joe Preston]

Mr. Simms.

[Scott Simms, Liberal, Bonavista—Gander—Grand Falls—Windsor, NL]

I'm quoting from Elections Newfoundland and Labrador: It is also possible for a Deputy Returning Officer or Poll Clerk who is working at the polling station to visibly identify an elector (if he or she knows the individual and can vouch that he or she is who they claim to be).

[The Chair, Conservative, Joe Preston]

Thank you, Mr. Simms. You got that on the record. It is not really a point of order.

Mr. O'Toole, take three minutes, please.

It may be two minutes now, folks, but let's—

[Erin O'Toole, Conservative, Durham, ON]

Thank you, Mr. Chair, and I'll table the actual compendium that—

[The Chair, Conservative, Joe Preston]

I'm sorry. We still have a four-minute round. We'll be getting to the shorter round after. I apologize.

[Erin O'Toole, Conservative, Durham, ON]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I'll table afterwards the compendium Mr. Neufeld himself refers to that does a comparative overview of polling day registration, which says clearly that Newfoundland and Labrador electors must produce proper identification and take an oath.

To review where we are, four of the thirteen jurisdictions on a provincial level and most municipal levels do not permit vouching. I reference the decision of the majority of the Supreme Court, which clearly said that legislation provides that irregularities should be held in the same way as fraud if, as per your second point, they can impact the results.

We are spending a lot of time asking whether there is nefarious conduct going on when we really should be saying that there's a 42% to 80% error rate with vouching, which most jurisdictions don't use and which you yourself, Mr. Neufeld, said will form an immense challenge to fix.

[Harry Neufeld]

Let me talk about two alternatives. One is what's called a tendered ballot. This is a case in which somebody in a special situation, such as a vouching situation, casts a ballot, but their ballot is put into an envelope....

It's actually put into two envelopes. The first envelope is a secrecy envelope, and then the envelope that surrounds it is an envelope that has all the details about the individual and what the conditions were under which they cast their vote. This allows opportunity after the election day is over for the returning officer, with the scrutineers from the parties and the candidates, to look at these—

[Erin O'Toole, Conservative, Durham, ON]

Can you quickly go on to the second one?

[Harry Neufeld]

The second one is the approach used in Manitoba. If you want to read an election act that's written in plain language, I think Manitoba's is the best example in the country.

Section 2 of the Manitoba Elections Act deals with establishing identity:

A person who is required to establish his or her identity under this Act

—section 129 says that every voter has to establish their identity—

may do so by providing (a) an official document issued by a federal, provincial, or municipal government that contains the person's name and photograph;

—rather like our first step in the document you have there from Elections Canada—

or (b) at least two documents that provide evidence of the person's identify satisfactory to the election official in question.

That's like the second part of the Elections Canada arrangement. But here is the difference.

Instead of vouching, it says:

If none of the documents provided contains a current address, the person must make a signed declaration as to his or her current address.

So there's no vouching; there is a signed declaration. There's a paper trail, there's integrity to the process, and you're not disenfranchising.

[Erin O'Toole, Conservative, Durham, ON]

The tendered balloting that you suggest, with multiple envelopes and the like, certainly suggests even more administrative challenges, for a fairly small amount of training for our officials—which a large part of your report looked at—as well as administering of oaths. There are seven oaths that are currently administered, which is also a burden.

But going back to these options 1, 2, and 3, with option 3 being vouching, if we take away the vouching of option 3, as we have established many other jurisdictions do, what are we left with?

I'm an average guy. If I showed up to vote, I would have my driver's licence, which as you said more than 85% of people tend to have. And if we just go through the wallet, the health card...acceptable, acceptable, acceptable—

[Harry Neufeld]

Which one has your address?

[The Chair, Conservative, Joe Preston]

We'll give Mr. O'Toole a chance to put his wallet back together, and I think we're now limited to about a two-minute round.

Mr. O'Toole, your time is well completed. Thank you.

Mr. Hawn, you have two minutes.